CTS-V sets the fastest Ring time for a production sedan (interview with the driver)
 

Since Ring times are all the rage these days, I thought I'd add one myself.
7:59.32 or rounded off 7:59 for Cadillac CTS-V

Here are the Ring times for other 4 doors
7:59 Subaru WRX STi Spec-C Prototype
8:05 BMW M3 E92
8:06 Subaru WRX STi Spec-C
8:09 Audi RS4
8:11 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR prototype
8:13 BMW M5 E60
(mind you, these times were set by independent magazines except for the top Subaru)

That's a nice solid lap time. Hopefully the next CTS will trim some fat and get back to or below the weight of the first CTS. The next M5 vs CTSV comparo should be pretty exciting (that's with the upcoming M5, not the current outgunned one.)

Hehe...

And John Heinricy is the one who set the C5 Z06 time - its great when the program chief, engineer and driver are all the same person :)

That's also why the C5 Z is so good for a "cheap 2001 desgin year Chevy" - it was the car he raced on a personal level, so he made sure it could deliver or at least had factory backed mod parts available.

The new CTS-V is simply this philosophy carried to the next elvel, wearing a tuxedo :)

Hehe, is it a believable lap time? :P

The current M5 ran an 8:13 or something, so yes, nothing seems too out of line.

I dunno. Only if the LSA actually makes 700hp. ;-)

actual source
http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/2008/05/...urburgrin.html
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.au..._greenhell.jpg
Looks so hot in silver.

Very impressive time and considering the power believable but I will still wait for an independent test just as with the GT-R.

yeah, I'm not impressed until a Japanese driver can make it go as fast as a Zonda, and CGT either.


I mean, it should be only slightly faster then a GTR since it has more power, and even more weight! ;)

thats so good for a 4door car and im sure its not ment for these types of roads so thats pretty impressive... so lets see what the aussie v8's can do around there :D

Click on the picture to view the video
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3237/97643868yq6.jpg

Heinrocket! This video is so much better than the Cobalt SS one. The CTS-V seems on edge every waking moment with the tires rarely quieting down. This sort of video really makes me doubt the "Nissan was just the first one who really tried for a fast ring time" theory.

I would love to know what time Heinrichy would set in a C5 Z06 these days - he must know the track way better than he did back in 2003.

I wonde rif the manual tranny car will be any quicker. That was the automatic version - I didnt see him ever shift.

Yea, I was wondering that too. Now that automatics have 6 gears as well, manuals don't have their default extra gear advantage that they've traditionally had. The auto's don't sap drastically more power than the manuals, so the advantage is then limited in the freedom of selecting where you want to be in what gear. So it all depends on how good of a job the GM 6 speed auto is or is not doing to begin with I guess.

what a nice car:thumbup:
does it blip the throttle on downshifts? i couldn't really tell

http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/004.jpg
http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/002.jpg
http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/005.jpg
http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/001.jpg
http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/200.jpg
http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/101.jpg
http://www.km77.com/00/cadillac/cts/cts-v/gra/100.jpg:twisted::twisted::thumbup:




http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/1...c.4019.500.jpg
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/1...c.6613.500.jpg
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/1...c.4035.500.jpg


And yes he beat that time with racing seats and rollbar,strange dont you think?

And yes,rs4 beat that in 7:58,without supercharger and rolcage and racing seats.Nice try.

^
Nothing strange. Going at those speeds on the Nordschleife is dangerous. Manufacturers should always ensure driver's safety. Full harness racing seats, fire suspension system etc.

Good time btw, but lapping with full-auto box = fail.

I'm liking the purpose-designed interior. Looks great.
Impressive time - raises questions over what constitutes a "stock" car though..

If you read the article youd see they are pretty sure it was the 6 speed manual version.

the video shows the 6 speed automatic, with paddle shifters... no traditional gear box hand movements... which IMO, the proper 6 speed will go faster around the Ring...

I suppose CTS-V is without any electronic gadgets that you dislike? There's no traction or stability control to assist the impressive lap time?

^Just standard stability and traction controls. It is a Cadillac afterall.
(Electronic stability controls are mandatory on all US cars.)

So it isn't all driver's car in the end;-)
Do you know is there any relation to other GM's brands or models with this car, or is it purely Cadillac?

Just like with the last CTS-V, you can turn the aids off.

The aids are there as "safety nets" not power distribution aids... big difference. The GT-R needs its techno wizardy to get out of its own way, the CTS-V, Z06, 911TT, Viper etc only have techno aids as a safety net and actually work better and are faster with them all turned off. ;)

Yeah. In the same way Ferrari and Porsches aren't driver's cars. Read mandatory. :-P

Do you really think so? On a demanding track like the 'Ring keeping your hands on the wheel at all times and not having the extra clutch work would significantly improve your lap time.

And without the TC/Stability aids, do you guys really think this driver would be able to do the same speeds?

If you claim the GT-R is different in this aspect, then you clearly are biased. Sure this car publicly has more power, but it is also heavy like the GT-R and without computer aids, any driver would end up in the trees or without rubber if they tried to go all out.

stability control in cadillac's aren't like the e-dif in the Ferrari, or in the Evo's, STi's, and GTR's. Applying the brakes to maintain longitudinal control is very different then applying the torque to do the same thing...

and, yes.... I really think so.

GM have officially said that this isn't their "official lap" with the car. The "official GM" lap will be with Jan Magnusen at the helm, and a 6 speed.... coming from the GM press office.

so if it isn't faster, why would they say this? ;)

EDIT

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=126303

Yes.

No doubt about it.. at this level the driver is not relying on the TC/AH/SC to go fast, as these features pull timing, cut throttle and / or apply the brakes thereby slowing you down.

Besides which, this driver is a naitonal champion competition driver, and would naturally be faster driving the car, not the other way round.

No - just being factual. One design philosophy relies one electronic ASSITANCE to overcome traditionl limitations and go faster. The other design philosophy has electornic nannies to keep the driver out of trouble and save the moment.

Nonsense.

I take it yo uhave never driven even the old CTS-V in anger then.

With that car you turn off the aids to go faster.

I am willing to put money on John being as fast or faster in the manual that he was in the automatic car.

They ar enot going short sell all the effort they have put into the slushbox - remember, this is also a mraketing excercise afterall ;)

OK, the manual transmission might be faster, with a competent driver. But we'll have to see if the fastest time will be set with all stability controls off.

Oh yea, the magnetic suspension is computer controlled which is never turned off, helping with the overall performance of the car.. mostly trying to hide its weight.

The magnetic ride has been in numerous GM cars since the early 90's .... the ZR1's FX3 suspension was magnetic ride ;)

Yes, a track specific suspension would yeild better results, with less weight, but the V is a luxury car still ;)

Could car less how old the technology is, it still an electronic aid which helps this sedan go fast. And it out it, it would not be able to make such a quick lap time.

See my point?

Doesn't matter - these are not "performance aids" - they are "safety aids" and actually slow the car down when invoked.

So, if the car set a fast enouhg time to beat the others turned on, then it will be even faster with it turned off. ;)

Uhm - thi option is easily bypassed with a plug in simulator to prevent error codes - after which time you remoe the magnetic shocks and replace them with sports shocks, which enthusiasts do all the time - the result is their car is faster on a race track.

Your point?

The car will be faster with these shocks removed.

Thats why people dont race their cars with this system in place.

See my point? ;)

the magnetic ride makes the car firm when "needed" and soft and luxurious when not. w/out the magnetic ride suspension, and only firm track tuned bits... it would be faster

the magnetic ride isn't aiding the driver per say... it's aiding the ride comfort ;)

Of course a race suspension would make it go faster. But this is a road car, built for comfort and performance, just like the GT-R.

And using computer assisted suspensions is to improve both performance and ride comfort.

I doubt that you'd be willing to call the Ferrari 599 GTB less of a driver's car because it has the magnetorheological damper. Which it does. And I doubt that you'd be willing to say that the 599 GTB and the GT-R are the same kind of animals. ;-)

It's not just about what kind of components it uses. The GT-R is based around the thought that electronic gizmos will be the main focus of the car. Its ultimate performance depends on computer programming. (As much as I'd love someone to test this theory, I don't think Nissan or any GT-R owner would like to strip the programming out of the car and test it.) I don't think that was the part of the CTS-V's engineering brief. If anything, the CTS-V mostly relies on the sheer power of the engine and the well sorted chassis.

dutchmasterflex, mate, you don't seem to understand the difference :mrgreen:



http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...rRodge/cts.jpg


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http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/devilGTR.jpg


"The Devil Wears Nitrogen Filled Tires"

Not talking about race suspension, but suspension which is only the V's current "firm" tune ;)

:laugh: @ the pics

Heh, I was waiting for this. I never ever said that the CTS-V is less of a drivers car. Sure it's available in a automatic.. but that's besides the point. The new CTS-V, with its trick suspension and new automatic gear box, is still a performance car aimed at enthused drivers.

The only high-tech component that really gives the edge to the GT-R is the DSG gearbox. Most performance road cars have computer suspensions, and similar AWD systems have been used for years. It has simply been dubbed the car for the playstation generation because of its extra features on the dashboard computer.


I hear ya toffy..

firm track tuned bits... ok not racing but track tuned, which would not make buyers happy on the road.

People still buy cars like that.... otherwise, the STi wouldn't sell, the c6 Z06, the GT3, and numerous others

Yes.. I am fully aware there is a market for that, but what Cadi is trying to do is compete with Audi, Benz and BMW for high performance luxury cruisers.

And anyway, people are taking these 'Ring laptimes way to seriously, and manufacturers are taking advantage of that by using it as a marketing scheme. GT-R becomes the fastest production car, CTS-V becoems the fastest 4 door.. it's all bull shit, and you guys are eating it up.

To break the 8 minute laptime by 1 second on a 14 mile track with an infinite amount of other variables isn't exactly a tribute to the car. It mostly depends on the driver (I don't think anyone who has driven the 'Ring has completed a lap with out admitting to at least 1 mistake, and if you claim you don't you've got to be kidding yourself, pro or not.)

GM is no better than Nissan. They're all corporate car manufactures trying to make a buck.

Nope - the GT-R relies on its electronic handling to go as fast as it does.

If you took out the magnetic shocks from the CTS-V (or the FE3 Corvette for that matter) and replaced them with stock stiff shocks off the shelf, like Corvette owners do (the FE3/FE4 guys simply put in non-adjustable C6 Z51 or Z06 shocks) the car will still be as quick.

That is the point.

If you took out the all the electronic power distribution and handling managment from the GT-R, and just left it as a 3900lb top heavy boat with only 480bhp it would not be as fast as it currently is.

Period.

That is why race GT-R's are lighter, more powerful and RWD - because they are not allowed the electronic wizardry that is needed to hustlte a top heavy 3900lb 480bhp boat ;)

BTW, we still havent resolved the issue about where is the GT-R better, long fast or short slow tracks ;)

your argument appears to stem from you accusing us of plutocracy. Specifically that the V has the aids we seem to hate on the GTR for. But. This is a very different scenario between each car.

the GTR has every aid known to man; many of which take away from the driving experience...

Electronic rear, and center diff
No driver involvement

DSG dual clutch system
No driver involvement

launch control - seems to not work well with timing lights according to Tony Swan... as the GTR chooses when to launch
no driver involvement

stability control
no driver involvement ( likely can be turned off, or down like MB cars)

"overboost" (speculative... no way will 520 hp + 3800 lbs trap 120 mph)
No driver involvement "stacking the deck" so to speak

Suspension management?? (unknown, as I don't remember)
Dynamics at one with the chassis; driver unaffected, except for a nicer ride when going out on a sunday cruise.

meaning.... the car delivers torque, and braking as it sees fit to be at the limit of grip

How does this differ from say... a F430 with many of these fancy features

1. Race mode, the car is still a full 1 second faster a lap with them off...

How does this differ from the CTS V


Suspension management
same as GTR

Stability control
Able to be fully turned off, with driver being able to lap faster around any said track (given the driver is good)

Bingo :)

The CTS-V is 4200lbs, 400lbs heavier than the GT-R. Why would changing just the suspension affect each other differently?

BUT if you took out JUST the suspension, and replaced it with a mechanically tuned performance spec suspension as you mentioned, it would still handle, most likely even better because of lighter, more firm components.

It's all in the transmission for the GT-R, being able to manage the torque, control launches, and shift quickly while keeping on the power.

I'm not trying to compare the technology of both cars either. The AWD system alone makes the GT-R and CTS-V in compatible.

But just for kicks:
When lapping the 'Ring the GT-R driver at least selected his own gears.. the GM driver didn't even touch the paddles when lapping at 7:599999999. ;)

Just for kicks...
GM offers both ghey transmission options that lap reallly fast, and a proper manual transmission that will lap faster.... with a proper race driver at the helm.

Nissan are telling you they are know better, and H gate transmissions aren't good anymore. :thumbdown:

(just another reason why i'd not get one.... but i don't need more reason besides it being the ugliest 2 door sportscar on the planet)

Pot -kettle.. kettle- pot.

Yes, it's the automatic — Heinricy's run was made in a CTS-V equipped with the new six-speed automatic. More incredibly however, even though the new transmission is equipped with shift triggers on the steering wheel, Heinricy never once touches them during the run. "He's letting the computer do the shifting," one source told us. "It matches the right gears to the braking perfectly."

The manual isn't as fast — "The reason you see John wave at the beginning of the video," another anonymous source told us, "is because (ride and drive engineer) Aaron Link is right behind him in a manual-transmission CTS-V." Link, an excellent driver in his own right, simply couldn't keep up with Heinricy and throughout testing, the automatic has proven to be the hot setup for this car. "There's video of Aaron's run, and he's incredibly busy" an insider told us. "Meanwhile, John barely moves."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=126303

I stick by my story.. 14 mile track, very demanding on driver who has clutch work, let a lone choose their own gears on a sequential gear box.

Similar to how rotax karts, although slower than a 6 speed shifter kart, can easily out perform in a long race simply because it is less work for the driver.