American cars in the UK?British cars in the US?etc.Thoughts?
 

First off, this is not a flame thread. Just wondering what everybody's general opinion is.

I mean, as most of our American members know, shows like Top Gear and 5th Gear (or even worse, the German shows) don't exactly flatter American cars. Thoughts? Reactions? How do you guys (American members) feel about British or French cars? How would you react if you saw one on the road? Positively? Negatively? Share your thoughts please.

Likewise, on this side of the pond, what would you guys think if you saw some chap driving a left-hooker on our pock-marked roads? What would you think? Lucky git? Arsehole? Some misguided sod who hasn't seen the beauty of independent rear suspension? Share share share...



Personally, I think American cars are cool. Cool in a way that German cars or Japanese cars will never be. Personal fave? I would be hard pressed to choose between an E90 M3, and a 2005 Shelby GT 500 (The "souped up" Ford Mustang GT).

I don't think American SUV's are cool though. Those are probably some of the dumbest vehicles ever produced. If I were to get an American 4x4, it would definitely be either the Ford F150 Lightning, or the SRT-10 Dodge RAM.

Coolest American sports car ever? The "Eleanor" Shelby Cobra for sure. If Ford releases the successor to that (their proposed supercar after the current Ford GT stops production), then maybe that'll rank as number 2.

lol, i live in the usa and I'm not exactly a lover of any american brand.

German cars all the way baby!!!


A.K.A Audi!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DD::D

maybe someone can donate me a 1996 a4, plz:)

or.. i should start a get desperate Alex an a4. so i can get it faster then late this summer :D

Edit: oh, and i love Top Gear.....but i hate 5th gear(tiff is creepy ass hell i say!).

I pretty much don't care. America is a different market. What most people want from a car here is very different from what most of Europe wants. Take a look at what sells here, a lot of them would do horribly in Europe. People here was big, luxury cars with super soft suspensions. Of course, that makes the handling really bad. Most americans don't care though.

I liek them, I'm sure I'm in the minority of that though. As the average american to name a Citroen model, they'll be stumped. Citroen, Pugoet, Alfa, etc.. stopped selling cars a long time ago. They had an absolute horrible reputation as well.
It really was their own fault, not that of American buyers. The cars certainly sold, the big problem was the horrid dealer network. I've read numerous stories of cars taking weeks to be fixed. Thats what ultimately killed them off here. Why pay more for an import when it took weeks to fix? And broke down rather often.

As far as the newer models go, there are a few that I really like. But the odds of ever seeing one here are slim to none. I have seen a newer Alfa, and it was rather nice. Had Euro plates and all. It was at a ALMS race, so it obviously belonged to a team from Europe. I know that there is a company in Wisconsin that will import whatever you want, but I can't imagine they import very many cars. So there is a very very ver small market for them, but the odds of running into a spanking new Citroen or something is very unlikely.

Back to your original question, if I saw one I'd definately be interested. I routinely see Jaguars, I've pretty much always been interested in them. Even if it's a model I'm not to keen on. I've always had a liking to MG's, not sure why, I just do. That is pretty much what you can expect for British cars here. Very very very rarely, you might come across an old Fiat, Citroen or Pug. I see a pair of Opel GT's every summer at the track days though! LOL rarely do I see a car that I have a negative reaction too. Sure, it might be super freakin ugly and absolute junk, but where I live, you have to consider yourself lucky to even see one.
Most people in Ranger Rovers bought them to look good, regardless of price. Simple as that.

I could be an ass and say neither one are SUV's! :P They are pickup trucks. I'm not sure I've ever considered a SUV cool, for the most part they are big lumbering beasts with no real styling IMO. The Cayenne is too expensive and you'll look like an idiot ($120K for a loaded turbo), the Range Rovers are too expensive, The X5 is alright but still a tad expensive. The few Japanese SUV's really are nothing special.
That only really leaves the American SUV's, which are devoid of any sense of styling or interior quality. They are cheaply made and in my experience, have numerous problems of their own. To be really honest, there really is no SUV that is a must buy. If I had to buy one, it would probably be something cheap like a used Tahoe, or bite the bullet and buy the only SUV on earth that actually looks good, the new Range Rover Sport. Which is......... too expensive! LOL

As far as pickups go, there are a few that are pretty cool. The Lightning and SRT10 Ram obviously are cool, even if totally useless. There is no reason in owning a fast pickup other than you can. If you got it, spend it right?
I really like the Nissan Titan, aweome truck IMO. I still prefer the old C10's though. They are just cool.

I could be an ass again and call it a muscle car, but I won't. :P The Gt500 is obviously a nice car, even if it's not the original Elenor. The original was a Mach 1, which is a cool car, but not nearly as cool as the GT500.

The colest American sports car, a bit of a hard choice for me. But I have to go with the 60's Stingray Corvettes. They look oh so damn good, and depending on which engine you got, could be very fast.

Best of the rest of the world is an even harder choice. The Muira is easily the best looking car on earth, but not the best driver. Shaped like an airplane wing, so they tend to wander at speed. I would have to say, given that money is not an issue, I'd love to have a Series 1, Jaguar E Type with the 4.3 V6. IMO, lovely car in every possible way.

Re: American cars in the UK?British cars in the US?etc.Thoug
 

First off don't forget the fact that most American cars and some Trucks have Independent rear suspension, so don't go there.


Personally I would take almost any American car with a V8 in it over a German car with a 6 in it. As Jeremy Clarkson said the best sounds in the world come from The American V8. I'll admit I would rather hear a nice rumbling Big Block V8 everyday than a Ferrari V8 or any other Italian V10-V12 (although they are almost orgasmic blasting through a Downtown city like Chicago)

[qoute]
I don't think American SUV's are cool though. Those are probably some of the dumbest vehicles ever produced. If I were to get an American 4x4, it would definitely be either the Ford F150 Lightning, or the SRT-10 Dodge RAM. [/quote]

Just remember we invented them essentially as they are today, The Explorer is one of the best out there that doesn't cost $60,000. And the Lightning and SRT-10 Ram are both RWD not 4X4 and as said already both are Pickups. Japanese SUV's are nice but they aren't as tough (and yes I know I own one) German's cost too damn much for a proper off-roader and Land Rovers/Range Rovers are what they are today thanks to Americans.

I would like to point out that the Cobra they slated for production after the GT40 is NOT the same as Eleanor which wasn't even a Cobra it was a GT500. Also the fact that Eleanor was a movie car and not the actual name given to it by Carroll himself (which I am meeting saturday!!!!) I have seen more Muscle cars in my life than most people will ever see And if there was an Enzo and an Original Shelby Cobra I would probably look at the Cobra first (not saying I wouldn't go over to the Enzo just not first) If I ever move to Europe I will have to bring an American car over with me because they just have that certain something about them just like Germans have something different and Italians etc...

Well seeming I'm a unbias umpire here I'll just say Old school and some of the new American muscle cars are cool (you'd have to be realy starange to like cars and not like the sound of a big V8). But as for the rest of the cars made in the U.S they are made specificly for that market and don't need to be popular in other countries.
I must admit I do love European cars, they are so sophisticated and the interior quality that they have is second to non. Power, comfort, looks European cars have it all.

Re: American cars in the UK?British cars in the US?etc.Thoug
 

My apologies for the pick-up bit. I thought those two (Lightning and SRT-10) were 4WD... now that you guys corrected me, that means I don't really fancy any 4x4. :|

You'll have to excuse me, we don't really use the term "muscle car" here. Pretty much anything with two doors and a big engine is "sporty", hence, "sports car". Also, the GT500 I'm talking about is the NEW one, the 2005 one. The Shelby-modified 2005 Mustang GT. I just call the old Shelby "eleanor" because most people don't know/recall/remember the actual model, so I assumed that if I used the name they gave it in the film, people would immediately recall what I was talking about. :)

Here's a photo of the 2005 GT 500 I was talking about:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/photo..._40_HR-med.jpg

Ummm... assuming you're replying to what I said, I was talking about the 2007 supercar that's slated to take over the Ford GT's production line. I think they called it the GR-1. I wasn't talking about the old Cobras.

The truth is that people in Europe are a ''bit'' prejudiced when it comes to american cars. My father has owned and still owns several american cars and my brother bought some years ago a new 2001 C5 Z06. It is simply an amazing car with fantastic grip,loads of power and most importantly a lot of torque, almost through the whole range or rpm. So this might have had an effect on me and nowadays i generally like some particular american cars a lot.The new ford mustang gt is a fantastic bargain and it brought back the good looks of the 60s models.Ever since i saw it,even in concept form i ve been wanting one, i am just hoping that after my graduation i ll be getting one. The Viper is another car that really impresses me with its monstrous n.a engine,its exotic looks and its rational price considering what it offers and what the equivalent europeans cost. As far as SUVs are concerned, i dont really like them a lot,regardless of their origination country.If though i had to choose one from the states i would go for the escalade. An all time classic ofcourse would have to be the original shelby cobra; although i ve never seen one parked in order to fully observe it, i ve seen and heard a couple while in move and this has been enough to put it in my personal list of the most desirable cars.

That just about sums the issue up. Stuff that sells here would flop in Europe and vice versa.

Premium branding is an example of what works here and doesnt necessarily work as well in Europe. We know it's a Toyota with leather seats ;)

im very simple minded about this: american SUV's suck, love british and french cars, top gear is the shit, jeremy clarkson has funny hair.

The funniest part is that the biggest SUV you can buy, is from Japan! LOL

Hey! We in Czech and Russia love all cars, American so you look like a cool guy who have something nobody have, and european... well to have something to drive :)

My loves - americans - old boxy Chevy Caprice and Vette. Eleanor is fabulous looking too :) SUV's and trucks are the less atractive to me :?

European - M's(e30 fav), TVR's, Jags

Ok, Im not American, and Im not European lol so this is what I think.

American cars... they are cheap and break apart fast. GM monopolizing everything just wants the big bucks and could care less about what their drivers feel from driving their cars. The only american cars that I like are GT40, Corvette, Viper, and I want to say Mustang, but they are not that good... European cars and Japanese cars are better made and give the driver much more than just a big bill in Fuel.

Re: American cars in the UK?British cars in the US?etc.Thoug
 

They aren't going to do the GR-1 which is a remake of the old Cobra Daytona they are making the Cobra which is a remake of the Shelby Cobra from the 60's and even the present one's he still makes. That is a different car than the SVT/Shelby Mustang Cobra coming out next year. I now what you were talking about. Eleanor was a special made GT500 Mustang not a Cobra.

Re: American cars in the UK?British cars in the US?etc.Thoug
 

Well I'm here in America and I still don’t miss an episode of Top Gear. Your right that they don’t "flatter" American cars in general. But they also don’t "flatter" much of anything but the best regardless of where it’s made (except maybe Rover..). Likewise they do a pretty good job of "flattering" the dark horse or "sleeper" cars every now and then.

But keep in mind Clarkson owns a GT40 and Richard imported a classic Charger was it? Or GTO I can’t remember? So it’s hard to say they don’t like American cars... Plus Richard tried to put the 300C on the cool board this week! lol

I'm not an American car fan at all. I drive a Honda (Acura) and haven’t owned an American car in over 10 years. But I don’t think Top Gear is overly harsh on American cars as people like to perceive.

You have to remember Richard also liked the new Mustang and Cadillac CTS, Clarkson loved the Viper, they said the Corvette was fun but complained about the suspension. They were happy that the Elise was redesigned for the US market :P

Can't say I particuarly like anything from the other side of the pond. For general, everday cars, the US just doesen't have the dynamics of the european cars - at least German ones in particular.

Race cars are about the same - US racers don't really interest me although I have a lot of respect for them. Quite alot of the racing stuff is made in Britain (Lola etc).

I don't think I could ever buy an American sports car, to me they just don't feel right. Sure, a few of them are very decent cars, but they just don't get the blood flowing like the European counterparts.

I like the original GT40 (which happened to be based on a British Lola ;)) - saw the new and old side by side at a motorshow recently, and the original just looks so much better. Shelby Cobra is another american classic i wouldnt mind, but apart from that....

Don't forget the Chevy's have the best overall record over all the Europeans :wink:
And Lola just opened a shop in Vegas not that long ago.

In what kinda racing? :S I don't see much Americanism in F1/open wheel racing ;) In fact 95% of it is based in Europe. As is most worldwide motorsport.


They're still based in the UK and are a UK company. Would make sense though, seeing as though they build almost the entire field of indy/champ cars :P

And let’s also not forget the GTO. Yes it’s a Holden and yes it’s made in Australia but it has an American corvette engine and Clarkson said "if you are buying any other car besides the GTO in its price range you are dumb and boring!" Or something very close to that lol. And that was the 5.7l GTO they haven't even tested the 6.0 400HP GTO that you can buy here for only 31k!! That’s only around 15,000 pounds!! You can argue over if it’s more of an American car, or more or an Australian car but one thing is for sure, it’s just about the most kick ass thing you will EVER be able to buy for such a low price!!

Lemans racing in Europe and the US

Shame the steering wheel is on the wrong side :cry:

What do you mean it's on the left or the right depending on where you get it

Sorry I was thinking out loud about importing US cars to the UK, especially GTOs as we have those in the UK thus the parts and GM dealer back up is available, albeit via vauxhall rather than pontiac. What I meant was, if it was as simple as shipping the cars and paying the import duty I'd be doing it. Alas, you need to convert them to right hand drive to realistically sell them in the UK.

It's not all bad, JDM cars are all RHD so lots of TypeR, Skyline, FTO type of stuff finds its way to the UK to make up for it.

Why not just get the vauxhall badged GTO? It's the same car.

I have to say I do find threads like this a little funny. I’m 33 years old and I can remember the days when American cars really were TERRIBLE!! My first car was a Saab 900. Then I had a 1990 Mustang that was just awful. Back then it was true American cars were awful.

But everything has changed today. I’m not even sure what the term “american car” means anymore. Ford owns Rover, Volvo, Jaguar, Astin Martin, Mazda, etc. GM owns Saab, Vauxhall, Holden, 20% of Fiat/Ferrari/Masarati, etc. So are those American cars now? If you say they are not because even if an American company owns all or part of any of the companies the cars are still built outside the USA. Ok, if that’s true then are all the Honda’s, Toyotas, Hyundai’s etc. built exclusively in the USA considered “American cars”?

The point is there has been so much globalization in the auto industry that to say you don’t like cars made by company ABC or you don’t like cars built in country XYZ no longer makes any since. Cars should be judged by how well they run and hold up an nothing else. I have no preconceived prejudices about any cars based on their brand or the country they were made in.

Because it costs $60-65000 in the Uk whereas the GTO is half that here, at the current exchange rates.

[quote="Global Hemisphere"]Mate, if the GTO/Monaro was only £15 grand over here, I wouldn't have bought a 1-series.

The GTO/Monaro is £29,999-35,000 depending on the model IIRC. That's what? $60,000?

[quote="Sir_GT"]I didn’t know it was 30,000 pounds there. Yeah that is very expensive. With the pound being worth almost double the dollar i'm curious... How much does an audio CD cost there? How much are movie tickets? Is everything double or is it relative. I was in London in 2000 but the dollar was a lot stronger then. Are you guys making a lot more income? I mean are average computer tech jobs paying 30 - 40,000 pounds a year? Or is that a big income for that job like $80,000 would be here?

OK you need to fix your quotes guys...
It should be like this:

American every day cars suck.This is sure.They are totally uncool,ugly,and their performance is dreadfull.French cars are the same.Now let's speak about supercars.Americans have Mustang,Corvette,Viper.French-none.Britts which I particularly admire have Aston Martin,Mini Cooper,Rolls Royce,Range Rover,Land Rover,Jaguar,MG.So I think that after germans and italians,Britts sure take the 3rd place,whith some of the greatest cars ever to be made. 0X

Yes, but you didn’t address the fact that Ford owns almost every one of the britt car bards you just named. Except for cooper and rolls. So are those cars really still British? Plus don’t you think new Fords and especially all fords coming out in the next 10 years will naturally be better because they have absorbed all the technology from these brands you just said you liked?

i think what you really have to look at is the individual american based companies. Not their entire conglomorate.

looking at it that way, yes the american brands are true piles of shit. i really think it all went downhill in the 80's with thier boxy styling and horribly executed emissions controls.

You couldn't pay me to get an American car these days :?

Again I think people like you are funny. You are holding opinions about American cars in 2005 based on how they looked in the 80s?!?! I'm not an American car fan, I drive an Acura RSX. But again their is no logic to what you just said. The auto world has changed so much and continues to change as we speak. You have to look at a company’s entire conglomerate because that is the reality of the auto industry. You are 22 and the kid before you was 20. I think what it comes down to is that American cars are not "cool" right now. Even if almost all the reasons for them not being "cool" no longer hold true.

You already know what I'm going to say here, Z. But It has to be said anyways. I drive a 2000 Pontiac Grand Am GT1, a GM, and AMERICAN product, if I'm not mistaken. And you also know how I feel about that car. She's my baby and I love her to death. You also know that my sister drives a GMC Sierra and my mom has a Dodge Intrepid, all american cars. The only non-american vehicles we have ever had were the Jaguar (which we got rid of because parts were too expensive) and my Honda Accord (which was a pile, to say the least). From my experience, American vehicles can be good-looking and reliable.

Proton own Lotus.... does that mean Proton cars are comparable to the likes of an Elise? :?

Are lambos in the same league as Audi/VW's etc?

Although the likes of Aston, Jaguar, Lotus etc etc are not owned by themselves, they operate fundamentally as individual companies.

To me, my views on the vast majority of American cars are not going to change based on who they own.....

Well you are only 19. Anyone that understands that ford has acquired Mazda, Volvo, Astin, Rover, Jag, etc. and not think that Ford's cars are naturally going to improve across their entire line globally, especially over the next 3 or 4 years is just naive and caught up only in brand image. But thats fine, thats why Ford makes the Valvo S40 for people like you. A Focus with a fancy badge.

Ford are going to naturally improve over the next few years because they have to... otherwise they will go bust; it's got little to do with who they own. The majority of profits from their owned companies go back into the relevant companies and not back to Ford directly.

Btw, Ford don't own rover, not that it exists anymore.

Part sharing goes across the entire network of car companies.

For example, the 4WD system on the Range Rover is shared with the BMW X5, not any of the Ford line up.

Deisgners and engineers frequently move between companies and so one designer could be responsible for 4 or 5 different cars in 4 or 5 seperate companies. Likewise cars are often designed "out of house". The GT40 for example is technically a British based car - but I would never consider it anything other than American. This is why it's fairly pointless comparing companies including the companies they own.

I don't consider Lotus Malaysian as much as i don't consider Aston American: they're both British....

Who's caught up in brand image? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Whether you like it or not, certain car producing countries produce a certain type of vehicle - in general. This is what this thread is about, not brand image :roll:

Ford does own Land Rover.

Lotus is not a good example because lotus only makes very high end performance cars in extremely small numbers compared to the number of cars Jag, etc. make each year.

As for Lamborghini, they have benefited tremendously from the VW ownership!! If it wasn’t for VW I don’t think lambo would even be around anymore. Ever since 1997 when Audi bought lambo the cars have just gotten better and better. They put all of Audis AWD technology into the, Murcielago, and Gallardo.

The fact is that Ford and all other parent companies are just going to continue making more and more cross platform cars where 50% plus of all components are interchangeable across brands. Just because one car is assembled in this country or that country wont make any difference to the end product. If you think all cars assembled in the USA are bad and all cars assembled in the UK are better you are going to have a tough time choosing cars in the upcoming years.

The point that you keep missing is that even though those companies maybe have been mostly left independent during the first few years after Ford bought them is not the way it will stay. Ford, GM, Chrysler haven’t bought up so many European brands just for fun. No its because they can come out with one basic car platform and sell it under multiple badges, markets, and price ranges, even though the car essentials and production costs will be generally the same. Also they will draw on all the talent, designers, and engineers etc. from all these formerly independent brands when designing their new cars.

GM's #1 problem.

Well the new Ford Focus, Mazda 3, and Volvo S40 are all platform cars. Under the skin they are basically the same car; key components in all 3 are identical which greatly reduces production costs. So far it has been successful. This is what the auto world is now and will become for most cars in 5 years or so.. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. are all doing it too. Like I said, the auto world has and is changing a lot! Probably more dramatically than it has in 50 years.

I never said they didn't, i said they don't own ROVER.

I'm not arguing whether they have benefited or not from the take overs. I'm saying that just because they're owned by a different manufacturer from a different country, doesen't make the daughter company belong any less to the original country.

Eg, i wouldnt in a million years consider Lamborghini german....

We're not talking about where cars are manufactured, this is irrelevant. All large manufactures have their cars and parts manufactured in many different countries which is why saying for example Aston Martin is an American car company is frankly bullshit.

I'm not missing your point at all, i just disagree

You mean like the VH alluminium chassis that was specifically made for aston martins? :P

Whether or not cars share parts is also irrelevant: it doesen't make the car any less particular to the country of origin - in general. The companies market the different cars for different markets and bare heritage in mind - heritage from pre-takeover.

Eg before ford takeover the DB7 had the jaguar xj chassis. That doesen't mean the DB7 is a jaguar, even though it's based on one.

Hah dude, I don’t know what to say... you keep going back to cars like the DB7?!? That’s a $100,000 car, all Aston Martins are consider by most to be “supercars”!! What is that your day car when your not driving that Zonda in you sig? lol You better hope the Aston Martin stays very exclusive at that price!
If your only argument is that a DB7 or DB9 are a lot better than all American cars even if it is now owned by Ford… I don’t think anyone will argue with you!! LOL

But if we are comparing general car quality by country and want to talk about realistic cars you should be comparing the jag X-Type to a 300 C, etc.

It doesn't always work, hence why Ford and GM's credit was downgraded to junk status.
GM has waaaay to many models in waaaay to many product lines. That is what it really hurting them. Does Pontiac needs to sell a Minivan? No. Does Pontiac need to sell a SUV? No. Does Buick need to sell 3 different versions of the LaCrosse? No. Do GMC and Chevy need to sell the exact same trucks with a different badge? No.
Yet they continue to do it, driving UP the costs of production. Just because they share platforms with each other, doesn't mean it isn't a waste of money.

GM has also dug itself into a hole with the constant incentives and price slashing. Now nobody will look at a GM product unless it's severely discounted.

Badge Engineering will be the death of the American motor industry if it continues. What GM and Ford need to do is come out with new, innovative, stylish products that people actually want. In other words, they need to be good.

Lets face it, the Accord was a huge success because the Taurus was a piece of garbage.

I'm still waiting for GM to build a a truck entirely out of that horrible plastic.

I agree completely. That has been a problem with USA companies for years. Before mini-vans and SUV-s it was station wagons! Called “Estates” in Europe. Back in the 80s GM had one under every one of its badges, Pontiac, Chevy, Buick, etc.. This is nothing new.

What is different is that the American companies have taken this philosophy worldwide, or at least are just starting to. You can see how it will potentially pay off big for them. As we have seen in this very thread you have people that love Volvo and Jag and HATE ford. Well ford is laughing all the way to the bank over people like that!! Because you can argue that the makers etc. are separate (for now!) but it is a fact that the profits are figured over the whole company.

sorry, but if i were getting something in that price range, i'd like my cars to turn. so my money would go for either a used m3 or an rx8.

Hah well if you watched Clarkson test drive the GTO you would know it doesn’t need to be steered. As he put it you can basically steer the car while looking out the side window!! And as far as it’s over all steering I think it did pretty well when Stig drove it. Didn’t it beat the NSX-R? Even if not I know it destroyed the M3. And that was just the 5.7L not the 6.0L!!

Watch for yourself - http://www.justcommodores.com.au/tem...gear_large.zip

Jeremy, Richard and James just go on and on about how great this car is. And all of us in America can buy the 6.0L for HALF of what it costs them!!

The 6.0 GTO is just crazy power and performance for the price!

An audio CD (album) would be anywhere between £10-15. Computer tech jobs pay around exactly what you quoted... sometimes even £55,000 if you're lucky.

Car prices are basically... replace the $ sign with a £ sign. It's because of all the gov't bulltax.

American/European cars?
 

I like European cars, but American cars are making a comeback in the performance scene with the Corvette C6 Z06, the new Mustang Shelby GT500, or the Charger SRT-8. It is an interesting question, and what shows like Top Gear and 5th Gear rip about American cars is the 'bloated' feel of an American car. I think American cars are improving and I did forget to mention that the luxury American cars are also improving. Give it time I guess, because America is attempting to blitz the market with high-performace models.

Who said the arguement was constrained to realistic everday cars? :?

Comparing American sports cars to other worldwide sportscars is fairly reasonable: the vette, Ford GT etc are relatively good cars performance wise (not that they'd be my choice).

But comparing the majority of American everyday cars to Euro/Jap cars IMO is completely one sided. American saloons etc are complete crap in comparison.

The exception being a few models in the Ford range; at least the ones sold over here. They are fairly comparable in the European market.

Just about anything else is not at all...

Well you don’t seem to make much sense in anything you say but that’s cool. Ford is laughing all the way to the bank over your beloved Astin Martin and Jaguar. Chrysler (Mercedes) and GM are over almost all other European brands. Like I pointed out GM owns 20% of Fiat,Ferrari, etc. so they are getting a chunk of those profits too. So American cars suck even though American companies are making the money on almost all the cars you do like. That seems about right. Europe can keep making the cars and America will just make the money;)