Holden coming to North America
 

well, sort of.... under the name Pontiac G8

- LeftLaneNews.com

Nice! So basically it will be new versions of the GTO under a different name? But will they still be RWD and have a Vette engine?

No, the Monaro has been discontinued for the second time. This is the VE Commodore, which is a new family car powered by a banal V6. The SS has a V8, though, and is more sports orientated, although not exactly a sports car per se. It has optional special leather seats and all sorts of luxury stuff. It's received rave reviews in Australia.

This is good news for the industry, especially since rising fuel prices have made large family cars unpopular amongst buyers. Good to see Holden exporting to America.

Yes and the G8 is a small family car.

The rumours out of gm are a move to a line of rwd cars. The GTO will be back too..

Nice idea!

But seeing how the GTO turned out who knows whats gonna happen :bah:

The real question is, will they change enough panels to make it a Pontiac? Or will it be just rebadged rebumpered Holden?

AS bad as you all say the GTO turned out, they only ever planned a max of 20000 a year. They missed their target considerablly, but I wouldnt call it a complete flop. The screwed the start by telling everyone the 2005 would be better then the 2004 (and bland styling), but they sold 11000 this year out of something like 13000 produced. That isn't a horrible showing.

Nor did people bad mouth it, other than the fact that it wasn't a GTO...

It'll get lots of kudos points for being RWD. It'll handle a lot better than its rivals and will have more power than Nissan Maxima, Toyota Abalone, etc...

For us, the Commodore is a large car. :P Only in America would it be considered small.

For a domestic car thats about normal. Only the 2004's were rediculous in that respect.. 32000 dollar cars going for 20000. What didnt they expect when they told people the car would have 80 more hp in the following year.

The Commodore is indeed a large car! But a very nice one!

How big is that Aussie Ford compard to it?

Actually the 5.7L has 350HP and the 6.0 has 400, so it’s a difference of 50HP. And like Top Gear pointed out the 5.7 is actually the better of the two cars because it has stiffer suspension and does not have the fuel tank right over the rear axel.

The 5.7 GTO is so cool. It may not have sold well but its going to be one of those cars people will try to get used for years to come. Especially people that like to tune cars, we all know how you can tweak the hell out of those Vette engines. I my self might consider getting a used 2004 GTO.

ummm.. The 6.0 is a vette engine as well. I was ball parking the hp.. The point is no one is going to buy the lower hp car this year for the same price as the new one.

As for suspension and gas tank.. Last I checked top gear didnt test the GTO. They tested the same body but just like the have slighlty different design cues the suspension is designed slightly differently for states to UK. In other words it may or may not hold true here.

Well then you missed some episodes. They tested both the 5.7 and the 6.0 but not in the same episode. Clarkson flat out said they both were brilliant but the 5.7 was better. He said the 6.0's back end gets too light a whippy when you get low on gas and it fells a lot softer and more wobbly than the 5.7. But he said both were fantastic and you can drift in them like no other. I think one of his closing quotes about the GTO was something to the effect of “if anyone is buying any car other than this one in this price range they are either stupid or boring!”.

^^^They don't sell the GTO in the UK man.. Clarkson has not tested it. They sell the Monoro. Same car with some visual changes and suspension changes. I haven't missed any episodes, I have everyone for the last 7+ years. Hell they have a 500 hp version of the Monoro now according to top gear magazine.. There is no such gto.

Man its even worse then that I see.. They dont sell a 5.7 l gto in the US, haven't since 2005. They still sell Manaros with ls1s. IT is a great engine, I have one afterall, but whether the 5.7 l 2003 cars can compete with the 6.0 2004 cars that cost the same exact price in the US.. is not proved by a british magazine with different engine/suspension combinations.

The Ford Falcon is around the same size. The new Commodore is said to be a better car to drive than the Falcon. Otherwise, there are almost identical numbers of each car sold every year, they have similar levels of equipment, similar performance. There's really not much reason why you'd pick one over the other, but Australians tend to choose because of sentimental reasons. I like Falcons. :)

I'm pretty sure this G8 will sell better than the GTO. It enters a market where there is a place for such a car.

I'm slightly biased. I really don't even want GM to bother with the G8 (possibly the lamest name EVER given to a muscle car), because nobody cared when they brought up the Monaro/GTO to the States. Because I'm pretty sure about 3 were sold in the past 3 years, and 2 were sold with automatics. Oddly enough the only manual sold came with the dumbed down "five-seven". Go figure. :lol:

Really though... GM is late to the game again! Their stopgap was, what? A GXP Grand Prix and an Impala ... SS. Yeah.

What I'd LOVE to see is the Ford Falcon brought up from down under with both the Boss 302 and the Turbo Six. Those cars are simply too cool.

I dunno if y'all caught on but I'd much rather have Ford succeed (even though its in the same predicament at GM) and watch GM crash and burn. Again.

Yes of course he testeted the "Monoro" its the very same car. I also have all top Gear on my computer. Don't even try to argue with me on Top Gear, I have seen them all!!

Here is the first review of the 5.7 -
They tested the 6.0 "Vauxhall Monaro" -
And they even did a 3rd test (James May) in Series 5, Episode 1. -
You clearly dont konw what you are talking about because first you said there was an 80HP difference between the 5.7 and 6.0 and now you are trying to claim he has never tested the car on Top Gear!

And I know they stopped selling the 5.7 when the 6.0 came out. That is why I said people are going to be looking for used 5.7's for a long time because it was actually the better car of the two!!!

Edit: Oh and Hammond tests it even a 4th time in series 6, episode 11 which includes a Stig lap!! (it did the same time as the WRX STi) The GTO in its various forms has been tested at least 4 times on Top Gear!! -
And here are the Clarkson quotes about the 6.0 from his Times Column -

"Sadly, all is not sweetness and light, because the Monaro is sold in America as a Pontiac GTO and the new version was designed specifically for Uncle Sam. That means it’s all gone a bit soft. And for some extraordinary reason they’ve moved the 60-litre fuel tank to a point directly above the rear axle. This means the car’s handling will change depending on how much fuel you have on board, and also that the boot is nowhere near as big as it should be."

"It all sounds great but there’s one problem. You can still buy the original, harder, 5.7 litre car. Yes, this only offers up 349bhp compared with the 6 litre’s 398bhp. But you’re pressed to spot that difference on the road.

And here’s the clincher. The 5.7 is only £29,000. Put simply, there is no better bargain on the market today. "

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...6285_2,00.html

Oh allright! :D

Im a big Aussie car fan mate (with an australian accent) :wink:

And thats the point.. It isn't quite the same car... For the very same reason you can still buy the 5.7 in the UK.. or a 500 hp version of the same car (There is no gto vxr equivelent). They have different option ranges and suspension setups (spring rates and shock rebound) for different countries. Why? Because each country has different tastes. They also have different color pallets and body setups.
So no.. Top gear has not tested the 5.7l gto or the 6l gto.. In fact.. Based on what I see on the gto forums (I have a name and I use to read alot), most people trade up for the 6.0.. There is no one talking about superiority of the old versus the new. You stand alone based on a car that isn't even sold in the same configuration or body. GM does that with all their cars. In fact all auto makers do.

He has never tested the car.. Yet again.. There are differences between the two for tastes of each customer.

Oh come on give me a break. Just admit you were very wrong and give it up. You are just grasping at straws, the fact is it is the very same car and the Top Gear cast loves both cars but in general likes the 5.7 better than the 6.0. Period!

How am I wrong? Ive been telling you for 2 pages it isn't the same car. Its the same chasis and basic design, but they change spring rates, tires, engines, etc to meet a countries tastes. You cant use top gear as an arguement.

actually, a lot of market research and engineering is done with each of the Big 3, and likely all auto makers with variance in suspension geometries for different countries, and even different states... go figure.

Go read clarkson's column!! He even says the 6.0 VAUXHALL MONARO VX-R is the very same car as the 6.0 Pontiac GTO!!! And is soft because of it, and he was talking about the one for sale in the UK!!!

Citing Clarkson on an authority on engineering isn't a very good argument, you know LOL

Your citing the man that refered to the new C6's engine as a 5.7L. Care to reconsider your source?

Well I gave you guys 5 different links. Until you can give me one single link that supports some big difference in the 5.7 European Monaro and the 5.7 American GTO, and the 6.0 European Monaro and the 6.0 American GTO, you guys are pathetic.

If there is a real difference and you can prove it with links I will be glad to admit I'm wrong, but until I see some links you guys are just spinning your wheels.

Here is a yet another quote that supports that they are the same -

"Most recently, the current Monaro has been exported to overseas markets. It is sold, in left hand drive, in the Middle East as the Chevrolet Lumina Coupe, and in the United States as the Pontiac GTO, reviving another classic muscle car icon. It is also sold in the United Kingdom as the Vauxhall Monaro where it won Top Gear's best muscle car award.

Complaints about the Pontiac GTO's sedate styling from American consumers saw the addition of two bonnet scoops in 2005, with the VZ series Monaro, to recall the later muscle-car variants of the late 1960s' models. The bonnet scoops serve no functional purpose. In the eyes of the Australian press, the scoops have spoiled the lines, while the American media seem to accept them. The 2005 and 2006 GTO also received a Gen IV 6.0 L engine putting out 400 hp (298 kW); the Australian HSV GTO coupe got a similar engine in its Z series; and Vauxhall launched this as the Monaro VXR in the UK.

Holden's PR says that the scoops recall the HT Monaro.

Third generation Monaro production finished on December 13, 2005. The last Pontiac GTO was produced with little fanfare on June 17, 2006. HSV GTO coupes may also continue longer than the Monaro itself. Like the earlier CV8-R models CV8-Zs had extra features including a metallic orange colour, special wheels and a sunroof as standard; the same price was charged for the CV8-Zs as the prior VZ CV8s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Monaro

And another -

"The Pontiac GTO was relaunched in the United States in late 2003, based on the Holden Monaro. The Monaro is a 2 door coupe variant of the Australian developed VT/VX Holden Commodore. The Commodore was in turn developed by enlarging the European designed 1994 Opel Omega B, which was marketed in its original form in the U.S. from 1997 to 2001 as the Cadillac Catera.

The revival was prompted by former GM chairman Bob Lutz, who drove a Holden Monaro while on a business trip in Australia.

The GTO was produced in the suburb of Elizabeth, South Australia, and is equipped with the Corvette's LS1 ('04) and LS2 ('05-'06) V8 engine with a choice of a 6-speed manual transmission or a 4-speed automatic. The same model is sold in the United Kingdom as a Vauxhall and in the Middle East as a Chevrolet Lumina SS. GM North America made a deal with Holden for them to produce a maximum of 18,000 vehicles per year starting in late 2003 and going through to the end of the 2006 model year. 18,000 was the production limit for the model at the Australian assembly plant.

Despite high expectations by GM to sell 18,000 units, the Monaro-based GTO received a lukewarm reception in the U.S. It was frequently derided for its conservative styling, which many critics felt was too anonymous to befit either the GTO heritage or the current car's performance. Aside from the styling, the GTO faithful were further insulted by GM's failure to present a U.S.-built car that incorporated any design lineage from the muscular icons of the 1960s and 1970s. Given the newly revived muscle car climate, it was also overshadowed by the Chrysler 300, the Dodge Charger, and the new Ford Mustang. Sales were also limited because of dealer tactics, such as initially charging large markups and denying requests for test drives of the vehicle. By the end of the year, the 2004s were selling with significant discounts. Sales were 13,569 of 15,728 cars for 2004."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_GTO

basically the same car does not equate to the "same" car. for differences on the suspension set up, it was written about in 2004 when the GTO came to the US; i'm sure there are some magazine scans of it somewhere.

still, where do you think 8,000,000$ was spent on bringng the car over here? certainly not soley on the fuel tank ;)

5 links of amature information doesn't equate to an engineering certainty, now does it?

5 links of "amature information" (Top Gear is now considered Amature?) still beats no links at all. Find me even a tiny little scrap of info to support what you are saying and I will be impressed.

Bingo, based does not equate to same car, same suspension geometries, epa testing, crash testing ;)

man.. Do you even read the links you post.. They actually say the car is different in the first few sentences:
What side of the car do the brits drive on? What side of the car do the Americans drive on? Put two and two together.... what does that say about the cars?

Yes but Wiki is VERY good at listing out every single difference between models and yet they listed none. Again, come back when you have a link to ANYTHING credible that lists any differences to suspension or anything else.

Find me a suspension engineer, or mechanical engineer at Top Gear magazine, they are professional journalists; nothing more, nothing less.

how about this, find me absolute proof that they are the same?

$8,000,000 was spent bringing the GTO to the USA, if it were the same car, much much much less would've been spent. its 95% same, sure... id say thats a fair estimate

Better yet why don't you find a single engineer, or mechanical engineer IN THE WORLD that can list any real difference between the American and European versions of this car!!

Dude you can try to turn this around all you want but to anyone else reading all of this is very easy to see that you are the one making claims without a single link or shred of proof to back it up what so ever. If you want to question the validity of Clarkson or Top Gear I'm all for it!! But you are going to have to bring something to this convo other than your idle speculation!

Hello.. Mcfly..
Right hand versus left hand drive. What side the steering wheel is on seems like a real difference to me.

Fuel tank, suspension gemotries (need to make up the differnce in weight bias due to tank) LHD conversion, EPA conversion, Crash testing

All obvious, why do you need an engineer to tell you the obvious?

Thats a good start!! There is one difference we can all agree on. Some of the European models have LH drive. You have anything else? I think we all know a lot of cars are made in both left and right had drive that have no other real differences.

Got a link to that?

I have to be honest here, what are we even arguing about again?? Let me get this strait, you guys are saying the American 6.0 GTO is better than the American 5.7 GTO even though the European 5.7 Monaro might be better than the European 6.0 Monaro??

Again, prove this with some links.

Uh.. no...
When you switch the drive train from one side to the other there are significant differences. The location of the transmision, the steering column, the steering boxes, etc. Right there you've got massive changes.

Then theres the fuel tank. IT was well publicized that the fuel tank for the gto is located in a place different from any other market.. They spent a fortune on it.

Then their is the external body.. only a blind man wouldn't know thats been changed.

Then theres the engine options.. No 500 hp gto here. No 5.7 for sale.

So why for one second do you think that a 2004 model US gto has the same suspension and is the same as a 2005 or 6 UK GTO 5.7? Even the side you drive the car on will change where the weight is in the car and thus the performance. You can tell that with any simple race car design program.

How about this one:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...4&article=6594

"think mcfly, think!"

LMFAO
:ROLMAO:
:spaz:

government regulations mang, its kind of a no brainer

fuel tank and revised suspension (minimally due to revised fuel tank) is a no brainer

LHD, you conced, but call it "easy"

EPA emissions testing; rigorous, sure GM are experts, but this is nessisary; and altogether very different to Encap IV... no brainer

Crash testing: every car in the US that isn't kit built, imported in numbers over 300 per year, and for show + display requires full Ann Arbor Gov. DOT crash testing, GM had modified the car to pass side saftey by including a steel torsional bar... this regulation doesn't exist in europe, uk, or austrailia.. again, a no brainer

We are saying the european vauxhall's have no bearing whatsoever on how the GTO's relate. I am telling you there is no such prefer the 5.7l going on in the US GTO community. In fact, quite the opposite, most of them are trading in their cars for 6.0 L so they have more bhp. As such telling everyone, before the 6.0 was even released, that a car would be released with more power (making the suspension arguement moot anyway as no one could buy or test the 6.0 yet) killed 2004 sales.

Again come on man, don't waste you time typing all that out. If any of that is true you should easily be able to find an article written about. Anything. An article that says something to the effect of "wow the American GTO sure does not match up to its sister European Monaro" or "wow the American GTO blows its sister European Monaro away!".

But stop with your personal speculation.

I never said one was better then the other, as honeslty I don't care... i never liked the car much to begin with TBH

but your arguemnts lack all validity, and logic

Wow ok, then that should be VERY easy for you to link! I will even call you the winner if you can link a single thread from a GTO board with users saying that they are trading in their 5.7s for a 6.0s!!

Back in 30, THE OFFICE is on!

First post on the new age gto forums New and Prospective Owner Forum .. What a shock
http://www.newagegto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6445

Someone trading in for a car with more bhp.. Never seen that before... :roll:

Perhaps you should do a search of your own. Vauxhalls own website advertises the 500 hp vxr500. The article I posted earlier discusses the gas tank. A fool can see the cosmetic differences and the side of the car they drive on. As someone who has worked with a decent number of cars and previously created a track car monstrosity, I can comment on the weight of steering components and the effect of changing their location relative to weight and actually changing the components in a car. Just a change in the steering box ratios makes a hell of a difference.