*** 2005 United States Grand Prix ***

[saadie]

Originally Posted by jenkF1 At the end of the day theres one clear thing we can take away from this incident- Formula 1 is tearing apart, Ferrari and the FIA vs The Rest and if this carries on I think we will see GPWC sooner than you think. :x :x :x :x :x

ou are soo right ......
well i guess we''ll only be seeing changes after we get a new FIA director

[ZfrkS62]

THis may have been mentioned before, but as they were saying on Speed, Indy got resurfaced this year just prior to the irl test. It was done so poorly that they had bring a grinder in to smooth out the track. However that was not done well enough either and 2 hours into the irl test, the session was cancelled. The nascar test scheduled after that was also rescheduled until another grinder could come in and complete the job.

It is possible that Firestone (irl's supplier) knew about what was happening on the banked turns with the tires and forwarded the information to Bridgestone so that they could get started on developing their tire for indy.

Now i'm also wondering if they failed to check the infield road course with the grinder or did a sub par job with it like they did with the rest of the oval, which is why the michelins were having trouble making the transition.

Whatever the cause, what we saw yesterday was just plain bullshit. this is not a Ferrari/FIA conspiracy, this is just bernie and max being stubborn jackasses. This whole thing has probably sealed the fate of F1 being a part of the FIA. thier refusal to budge on the tire rule has been source 1 of most of the tension and dissatisfaction of everyone in the paddock and in the stands. I would be extremely surprised if there wasn't a vote to remove bernie from his position and also force max to step aside.

[RC45]

Finally - proof that FIA what really stands for... Ferrari's Inside Ally.

Not that we haven't seen this kind of Ferrari-sided decision before - just think back to all the class rule changes made by the FIA since 1964 at least, that have allowed Ferrari to recover from some disadvantage, not by designing a better car, but by having the competition's car outlawed by a rule change because they beat Ferrari in a season.

Formula One, Sports Car, Sports Prototype etc etc..

So no surprise here.

Problem: Tyres and track safety.

Solution: Change the track and postpone the race by 6 hours allowing the teams to do some test laps - then fine Michelin $10 Million for bad practices and call it a day.

This should have been treated no differently than if a 10 inch rainstorm showed up and delayed everything for 6 hours.

*shrug*

F1 wanted to get into the cash rich US market - pity they won't be asked to come back again...

[disclaimer] I couldn't be bothered to read the preceding 9 pages before I posted...

[|Nuno|]

Rubens and Ghini's comments:


Rubens Barrichello has hit back at claims that Ferrari should take some of the blame for the United States Grand Prix fiasco because the team were alone in refusing to back calls for a chicane to be built prior to the final corner.

Although every team other than Ferrari agreed on Sunday morning that a chicane should be built prior to Turn 13 in a bid to lower speeds through the banked corner for the Michelin teams, the matter never got Ferrari's approval because the Italian team believed the matter was purely the responsibility of the FIA.

And although some have therefore claimed that Ferrari should take some responsibility for the turn of events, Barrichello insists that the team were innocent and he has rubbished claims that a chicane would have been any safer.

"The circumstances made it bad day for all," said the Brazilian who finished second behind Michael Schumacher. "Looking at what's happened it seems it's all Ferrari's fault, but it isn't. A lot of people didn't seem to understand that.

"Michelin was saying that putting a chicane on the oval would have allowed for safer racing, but I don't agree with that. To put a chicane for the race, without anyone practicing with it, would have been very dangerous.

"We'd be finding the braking area in the race and that could start an accident."

When asked why then, if he believed Ferrari did the right thing, was there no celebration on the podium for the team's first victory of the season, Barrichello said: "It was a race with six cars. I'm used to things like we had in Rio, with pre-qualifying and 36 cars trying to get to the race. Now to have six cars in a race is not something that can give anyone any pleasure.

"This is not the F1 we want to see. In the US F1 is not very popular and this won't make it better."

Barrichello explained, however, that the widespread controversy over the event should be put into context - especially with some people claiming it was a tragic day for Formula One.

"It was sad but not tragic," said Barrichello "Tragic was in 1994, today it's just sad."

Ferrari's head of communications Antonio Ghini also defended the Italian team, saying the chicane option was not viable.

"If the problem encountered by Michelin at Indianapolis happened to Ferrari or to Bridgestone, with the roles swapped around the world would have come down surely," he told Gazzetta dello Sport. "At best they would have told us to do the best we could.

"It's impossible and unacceptable that in F1 rules could be changed on Sunday morning, even proposing the creation of a temporary chicane in order to solve somebody's reliability problems. This way F1 becomes a farce.

"From Indianapolis it transpired with certainty that if the teams that didn't race complied to Michelin's more cautious settings, and if they limited performance, then they could have raced. But by forcing the situation in order to obtain the chicane on the banking, they engaged in an unacceptable arm wrestling match.

"Ferrari has always been legalistic, and when we've had problems with the tyres at the start of the season, we adapted to going more slowly."


'Nuff said.
__________________________________________________ ____________

And Todt's interview:

Jean Todt explains Ferrari's position Mon 20 Jun, 1:43 PM After Sunday's controversial United States Grand Prix at Indianapolis, Jean Todt clarified Ferrari's position in the run-up to the situation which led to 14 Michelin runners peeling off into the pits at the end of the parade lap, taking no further part in the race. But first Todt admitted that 'I feel sorry about what happened, but I mainly feel sorry for all the supporters who were here, for the American supporters, for the TV viewers but it was not our decision.' The reason why the Michelin runners took no part in the race was because they had unsuitable tyres on which they were recommended not to race. Compromises were sought from various sources to let the Michelin runners race, even for no points, but no solution was found. At one point, a chicane was suggested in the quick banked corner at the end of the lap, where one of the Michelin tyre failures took place during practice. Todt explained that he was not consulted on this. We were never involved with those discussions,' said Todt. 'Never involved. We were never asked about that. Whether we would have agreed or not is another question, and I tell you right now, to be sincere, we would not have agreed, but we were never asked about that. But is it serious to decide to put in a chicane half an hour without nobody testing it? It's ridiculous.' Todt did say that Bernie Ecclestone had talked to him about 'different proposals, including a chicane, but again, it's a matter of the FIA, it's not a matter of the commercial rights holder (Ecclestone's position). And I said that for me it was up to the FIA to decide.' Continuing to explain his position, Todt pointed out that 'number one, it's an FIA decision. Number two, if something happened on the other side; if, for example, we don't have enough grip for qualifying and we ask for three laps because we have good grip after the third lap, or if we ask for a chicane because we feel it would be safer for our tyres, I think everybody would laugh at us. So you just have to be prepared to react to a situation. 'You have two sets of tyres which you chose from, one normally is soft, the other one is hard and then you make your choice. I feel sorry for those who could not compete, but I feel more sorry, again, for the supporters.' Todt then explained the disadvantages of the sudden installation of a chicane. 'If we knew beforehand that there would be a chicane, we would have come prepared for a chicane. We would come with different tyres, we would have a different set-up on the car, we would have different gear ratios. Honestly, why should we compromise? We try to do a good job with Bridgestone, and we did not do a very good job with Bridgestone since the beginning of the year. We arrive, we are in a situation where we see from Friday that we are competitive, we don't have any problem with tyres so for us it's an opportunity.' There was even a suggestion that the Michelin teams would compete for no points if a chicane was installed. But Todt's reply was 'would we have competed for no points? I say no. If this race would have been a race without points which cannot be, it would have been out of the FIA standard, we would not have started.' Asked what sort of harm the boycott had done the image of Formula One, Todt replied 'very bad. I wish we could come back to the States because it's a very important country, it's now our number one market, the States, and for so many years Bernie has tried to implement something in the States. Unfortunately, it was not the best demonstration today. It has been a hard hit for Formula One today.' Todt explained that the teams had been warned about pushing the tyre situation to the limit. 'We all got a letter two weeks ago warning us after the Monte Carlo race and after Nurburgring when Raikkonen had his problem, that we had to pay special attention to the tyres, the pressures, about all that, and it's something we thought could happen for a while.' Asked under what circumstances he would you have been willing to race with the Michelin runners, Todt said 'I would say three options. One, they could have changed their tyres. Two, they would have to compromise in this specific corner. And three, they could have used the pit lane. If these cars cannot take this corner, what can I do? You would have had a race.'

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/050620/13/boho.html

[RC45]

Blah blah blah... F1 is just a circus and procession anyway.

There have been MANY last minute and on-the-race day changes made in the name of safety - but only when it doesn't impact Ferrari's chance of an easy win..

This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce...

[dingo]

Originally Posted by RC45 This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce...

Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll:

[|Nuno|]

Originally Posted by RC45 Blah blah blah... F1 is just a circus and procession anyway. There have been MANY last minute and on-the-race day changes made in the name of safety - but only when it doesn't impact Ferrari's chance of an easy win.. This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce...

If you're so disappointed with F1 then why are you still here? You can always go back to the 'Motorsport Discussion' forum and enjoy your non farced win at Le Mans, can't you?

Because I won't bother with this discussion anymore. I said what I had to say, but if you want to continue your Ferrari bashing, be my guest.

[dingo]

The famous "tall-poppy syndrome" is hard at work in here.....and its funny to watch really.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by dingo Originally Posted by RC45 This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll:

Well - those 5 world championships were simply a boring procession - week after week - FIA rule change here - FIA rule change there... procession procession procession...

Michael Schummacher as the winner - nit Ferrari - he has won what he drove... Just like Valentino Rossi... Ferrari just happen to own him is all

[dingo]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by dingo Originally Posted by RC45 This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll: Well - those 5 world championships were simply a boring procession - week after week - FIA rule change here - FIA rule change there... procession procession procession... Michael Schummacher as the winner - nit Ferrari - he has won what he drove... Just like Valentino Rossi... Ferrari just happen to own him is all

yes, and most of those rule changes were made to even the playing field - i.e. to slow the Ferrari's down since they were so dominant.

It wasn't that Schumi was carrying the Ferrari to victory, otherwise how do you explain Rubens finishing 2nd (or is it just a coincedence that the Ferrari's finish 1-2 and dominant the manufacturers c'ship)?

[RC45]

Originally Posted by dingo Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by dingo Originally Posted by RC45 This combined with their inability to even place at Le Mans proves Ferrari's success is a farce... Great point.....the result of one race is definately enough to judge a company on (unlike the last 5 F1 world championships for example, as that means nothing). :roll: Well - those 5 world championships were simply a boring procession - week after week - FIA rule change here - FIA rule change there... procession procession procession... Michael Schummacher as the winner - nit Ferrari - he has won what he drove... Just like Valentino Rossi... Ferrari just happen to own him is all yes, and most of those rule changes were made to even the playing field - i.e. to slow the Ferrari's down since they were so dominant. It wasn't that Schumi was carrying the Ferrari to victory, otherwise how do you explain Rubens finishing 2nd (or is it just a coincedence that the Ferrari's finish 1-2 and dominant the manufacturers c'ship)?

Easily explained - rules set to favour Ferrari.

You must be blind Tifosi not to see it, even years ago when I was a rabid Ferrari fan, it bothered me how historicaly the FIA makes rules changes based on the need to keep ferrari competitive.

Know why the GT40 stopped racing?
Know why the 917 stopped racing?
Know why the 956 stopped racing?
Know why the 962 stopped racing?

Because the rules were changed to allow the Ferrrais that were beaten to remain competitive.

Those are just the major historical events that come to mind - the Ferrari freight train is more of a horseless carriage with the FIA clearing the way so it can stay ahead..

[Toronto]

All the drivers didn't want to drive on the track.

RC I would do see how when schumi hit JV (by accident), and lost all his points in the season, thus losing the season and the championship. helped ferrari

as for your le mans rant... who won after the new rules :roll:

[pharzo]

Originally Posted by RC45 Finally - proof that FIA what really stands for... Ferrari's Inside Ally. Not that we haven't seen this kind of Ferrari-sided decision before - just think back to all the class rule changes made by the FIA since 1964 at least, that have allowed Ferrari to recover from some disadvantage, not by designing a better car, but by having the competition's car outlawed by a rule change because they beat Ferrari in a season. Formula One, Sports Car, Sports Prototype etc etc.. So no surprise here. Problem: Tyres and track safety. Solution: Change the track and postpone the race by 6 hours allowing the teams to do some test laps - then fine Michelin $10 Million for bad practices and call it a day. This should have been treated no differently than if a 10 inch rainstorm showed up and delayed everything for 6 hours. *shrug* F1 wanted to get into the cash rich US market - pity they won't be asked to come back again... [disclaimer] I couldn't be bothered to read the preceding 9 pages before I posted...

This is completely different from a rainstorm because rain would have affected everyone....Michelin fucked up big time, and then they ask the FIA to _change the track_????


If Ferrari had ever brought the wrong tires to the race and asked for a track reconfiguration,, there is no way people would support them.


Michelin messed up on this one, FIA rules are clear on this. Bring one compound with which you can go fast but maybe isn't completely reliable, and bring one that is absolutely reliable. Michelin didn't do this. The FIA cannot have allowed them to force a change in the track, because that just not the way and sporting event works. The teams could have been smart about this and just pressed the left pedal a little before T13, but no...."The other people have better tyres, we quit!" What the hell kind of attitude is that.... F1 is a sport, not kindergarten...it's not important that everyone gets to play, it's more important that the best person/team wins

As for F1 not being asked to come back, i think this is crap. If anything the FIA won't want to come back because of the unacceptable level of behavior displayed by the "fans" attending the GP

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Toronto All the drivers didn't want to drive on the track. RC I would do see how when schumi hit JV (by accident), and lost all his points in the season, thus losing the season and the championship. helped ferrari as for your le mans rant... who won after the new rules :roll:

The same old Ferrari that couldn't compete under the old unrestricted system

Then the other manufactures came back and won the classes again - only to have the rules chagned again

There is a reason why Ferrari doesn't run a prototype car - they would never be able to pull it off - as in create a winning prototype

[RC45]

Originally Posted by pharzo This is completely different from a rainstorm because rain would have affected everyone....Michelin fucked up big time, and then they ask the FIA to _change the track_??? If Ferrari had ever brought the wrong tires to the race and asked for a track reconfiguration,, there is no way people would support them.

It is EXACTLY the same as a rain storm - the FIA rules do affect everyone - especially the stupid rules regarding tyres.

There would be more manufactures providing tyres to Forumla 1 if not for silly rules in place as it is

When more than half the field runs one tyre brand, then you are talking about a full field impact event.

Originally Posted by pharzo Michelin messed up on this one, FIA rules are clear on this. Bring one compound with which you can go fast but maybe isn't completely reliable, and bring one that is absolutely reliable. Michelin didn't do this.

Trye compund is one thing - carcass construciton and failure is another. The case is not that the tyres became slick to fast - they failed. I am sure the Tifosi would have a lot to say if a Michelin tyre failed - and the werecking car took out Schumi and killed him.. :roll:

Originally Posted by pharzo The FIA cannot have allowed them to force a change in the track, because that just not the way and sporting event works.

It can and does whe safety is concerned - adding a chicane or extending a runoff area or raising of lowering a curbstone is no different.

It is convenient for the FIA to make "strange rule calls" at one time then not another?

Originally Posted by pharzo The teams could have been smart about this and just pressed the left pedal a little before T13, but no...."The other people have better tyres, we quit!"

Not "better" tyres - "safer" tyres - huge difference.

Originally Posted by pharzo What the hell kind of attitude is that.... F1 is a sport, not kindergarten...

Imagine if 5 atheletes arrived at the pole vault event - and 2 major vendors/sponsors provided poles.

On the day the vendor/sponsor brings some new poles - and it seems they shatter when stressed during a vault. BUut the rules were cahnged to "only one pole per athelete per event" earllier in the year.

So - because they cannot switch to the opposing poles at this late stage, what should be done?

Lower the bar so the poles don't have to bend so much, ask the athletes to jump lower? Call off the event until better poles arrive?

As it is - the victory of the day will be a shallow victory proving nothing. Simply running towards the big cash payout of the "championship".

Originally Posted by pharzo it's not important that everyone gets to play, it's more important that the best person/team wins

Best team? You mean favourite team.

Originally Posted by pharzo As for F1 not being asked to come back, i think this is crap. If anything the FIA won't want to come back because of the unacceptable level of behavior displayed by the "fans" attending the GP

Obviously you have never really watched how the fans can and do and have behaved in Spain, Protugal, Brazil and even Italy when things don't go their way.

Motorcycle grandprixs are a great example - and even F1 events.

As has been pointed out - the few individuals were arrested and taken away.

All in all veru poor showing - and considering the FIA makes their own rules (they are not some state enforced rules) they can easily alter them on the day. As has been proven many times before.

I still say a chicane and 6 hour delay to allow for drivers to get used to it would have been the best solution.

That way EVERYONE races - it is safer, fans get to see the whole show and EVERYONE is subject to the same track change.

And if the Bridgestones are that much better they would still lap quicker than the Michelins.