MC 12 in JGTC aka Super GT

[nthfinity]

^^^^^
that ferrari looks terrible! :shock:

oh, and pc's usually cary telemetry data these days

oh... and by mechanical... do you mean an electric switch for something that ends up being mechanical, which is electrically monitored?

[SFDMALEX]

Are you fucking stupid? WHAT IS THAT SEQUENTIAL LEVER DOING THERE?

I guess its just a dildo right?

YOU CAN HEAR THE TCS you moron. Being so hard core you must have heard it. Or you just dont know what TCS sounds like.

Your a moron. DO you know how a telemtry works? Ever worked a telemetry? Well I have, and all the pits need is a screen to monitor and tell the driver what adjustments to make.

Everything can be adjusted by the driver thanks, thanks for owning your self agian. SUspension adjustmnets from on board. WHat does that mean? Means you can adjust all four corners from on board.



Jezzz I dunno what else to say........knock your self out man....dont want to waist anymore time on your ass.

[911GT1]

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Originally Posted by 911GT1 Why do you think skylines stopped dominating JGTC? Every car has its day. For instance 993 GT2 dominated the GT scene. Got old, got slow. 550s GT(S) class racers where a major force in the ELMS, FIAGT scene for quite some time, but they are coming near the end of their line.

No skylines dominated because of the 4wd and it's electronics. Since the road car came stock with it, it was allowed. It'a a loophole in the ruling for the earlier JTC. The end result was JTC was disbanded specifically to stop the domination of the skylines and the JGTC was formed.

Anyway that series is just a big show. The level of drivers there is just not impressive sorry. Watching those onboard shots is plain hillarious... They still run a Macca in the series? LOL Now dont get me started on the redicilous aero packages they run, that shit is more drag then anything else. Put any JGCT car against an ALMS, FIA GT front running Vette/MC12/550 and they will really feel those 700bhp

[/quote]

Of course it was all show. Lemans was all show, F1 was all show and WRC was all show. It was a show for the manufacturers to showcase their product. Name me one series that aint.

I'm not going to defend the level of driver in JGTC but they are sure as hell better than you average racing drivers.

The McF1 was run as a hobby for some rich guy. That's what JGTC is. Anybody can bring any car just as long as they comply with the regulations. You can choose to run the car for only one weekend for all they care but as long as you comply to the rules, you're in.

Aeropackages? DTM got an even crazier aero packages than even the most extreme JGTC cars. I guess those guys must have higher drags than JGTC cars right? But no, a 2000 CLK-DTM is slower than a JGTC car.

Yeah, why do you think it got only 500bhp? To give everybody a chance of winning. Most JGTC cars will push over 700bhp without the mandatory air restrictor accroding to an Toms engineer who I happed to meet at the track cafeteria during a break. We chat quite a while. He assures me that while any JGTC car will lap as fast as GTS class car but might not last as long as a GTS car as they are built for a 2 hour race not endurance. On the more interesting note, there are LM GTS cars that raced in JGTC but with the air restirction it was hopeless. Dude, do you actually know anything about racing?

[SFDMALEX]

Do you know what an FI 550 or a Vette could do? I guess you never knew that in FIA GT the GT field is all normaly aspirated machines.

I guess you also never knew that they also run air restrictors. Those NA engines with no restrictions could run north of 800bhp.


And no I dont know jack shit about racing I just happen to have race drivers, engineers, physicists as friends oh and I also happen to test simulators, test physics models and work with telemtries from time to time.....so no, as you can see I clearly know nothing about racing.

Now as I said, fuck off.

[911GT1]

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Are you fucking stupid? WHAT IS THAT SEQUENTIAL LEVER DOING THERE? I guess its just a dildo right? YOU CAN HEAR THE TCS you moron. Being so hard core you must have heard it. Or you just dont know what TCS sounds like. Your a moron. DO you know how a telemtry works? Ever worked a telemetry? Well I have, and all the pits need is a screen to monitor and tell the driver what adjustments to make. Everything can be adjusted by the driver thanks, thanks for owning your self agian. SUspension adjustmnets from on board. WHat does that mean? Means you can adjust all four corners from on board. Jezzz I dunno what else to say........knock your self out man....dont want to waist anymore time on your ass.

What are you stupid? Have you actually read the rules?!!
It said "Semi-automatic or automatic gearboxes" not sequential gearbox. So no, it's not a dildo. It's a gear lever.
No you cant hear the TCS. The similar system is available in Motogp bikes, it's called a slipper clutch. A JGTC driver can drop from 6th gear to 1st without the need to wait for suitable rpm range. Watch you on board video and you'll notice how fast they downshift the gears. You can even hear the engine banging on the redline as they downshift. My god you cant even tell the difference between viscous clutches and TCS.

Telemetry in JGTC context is live telemetry like you got in F1 cars. Yes I have a real MOTEC telemetry software software installed in my PC just for fun. I know how it works. JGTC banned live temetry but not data loggers. You're confusing data loggers and live telemetry.

Yes, everything can be adjusted but through a mechnical linkage. It's lightyears away from automatic and electronic adjustment which is what you're suggesting.
You misread the rules and you're trying to pin it on me? Puhleaseee.....

[nthfinity]

since when is a SMG not semi-automated?

it cannot work quicly/reliably without electronics

[RAMMIUS]

Anyway - keep arguing... I'm learning quite a lot about the JGTC with your discussion guys

I`m with dani

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by dani_d_mas ^^^ SMG what?? A sequential gearbox can work perfectly without being semi-automated. The one in my Clio is a SADEV 6-speed box, and it's not electronic, just like a bike... and the same used in the 'old' Clio Trophy. And I can tell you it works way faster than any electronic semi-automated gearbox you can find in the market now... even the SMG I guess that's the kind of gearboxes they're using in Japan then...

Dani mate, please. Out of all people you should be the first to catch this.

None of the cars in JGTC come with sequential boxes. Hence any alteration to a gearbox voids the so called "rules" outlined by JGTC. Understand? NSX comes with an H pattern box, further alteration of that into a sequential box is a form of automation. A sequential box is a form of a semi auto gearbox. Period. A fully manual gear chage involves clutching and decluching, that is not the case with JGTC. I dont even remember them lifting on upshifts. They most likely have like the case in some cars a cut ignition switch on the gear lever. Hence a form of automated gear change.


And lastly please show me any facts that he has outlined and where he has the upper hand in this argument. Really...Where are the facts that he has outlined.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by 911GT1 No you cant hear the TCS. The similar system is available in Motogp bikes, it's called a slipper clutch. A JGTC driver can drop from 6th gear to 1st without the need to wait for suitable rpm range. Watch you on board video and you'll notice how fast they downshift the gears. You can even hear the engine banging on the redline as they downshift. My god you cant even tell the difference between viscous clutches and TCS. Telemetry in JGTC context is live telemetry like you got in F1 cars. Yes I have a real MOTEC telemetry software software installed in my PC just for fun. I know how it works. JGTC banned live temetry but not data loggers. You're confusing data loggers and live telemetry. Yes, everything can be adjusted but through a mechnical linkage. It's lightyears away from automatic and electronic adjustment which is what you're suggesting.

LOL...keep owning your self buddy. Your just making my life easier.

Now please, please tell me what effect slipper clutch has to do with anything said previously? You just pulled that out of your ass. What relivance does it have to any of the argument above from making your self look further like an idiout with the whole gearbox talk.

You do realize that TCS and clutches work completly differently right?

So they can ditch from 6th to 1st no problem. They dont have to match rpms, what else? Please go on...All this FULLY MANUAL facts you lay down are great hehe :roll:


You say you have Motec Interpeter installed? Just for fun right? Now what use does it have with no data to input? You know it's completly useless withouht any data input right?


And you do realize that a driving aid does not have to be computer operated in order to be considered a driving aid right?

Any adjustments from inside the cockpit apart from the basics such as brake bias is considered an aid.

Being able to adjust all fours, having electornicaly and not even hydrolycaly operated steering column is considered an aid.

If I drive and start to loose grip and have the ability to adjust my steering rack ratios thats an aid.

If I drive and find that I the front ARB should be stiffer and adjust that from the cockpit thats an aid.

All of the above aid the driver to overcome a probem he is experiancing.



Pure racing, meaning man and machine is when you set your car up in pits and set out on track, battling changing conditions with skill and not a flick of a switch to change a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

You lost long time ago buddy, but please do continue I want to see how far you will go.
.........................

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by dani_d_mas And you can adjust many things mechanically - in my Clio (the cheapest racecar you can find) I even can regulate the brake distribution from inside... mechanically. So imagine what they can do using similar systems. As for the telemetry, again - it's not the same as a data logger, as 911GT1 has said. I guess that the telemetry which has been prohibited is the bi-directionsl, just as the one used in the F1 two or three years ago. My Clio (again, a car 100 times cheaper than a SuperGT also has a Magneti Marelli data logger

Ahh brake balance adjustment is nothing new mate, not surprised you can adjust it.

Now when you are able to adjust dampers, arb's and tire pressures from inside then we can discuss this matter further. Now I know your clio cant do that.

A bi directional telemetry allows for onboard system adjustments from the pit withouht bothering the driver.

A one way telemetry requires the driver to make the adjustment by him self with the instructions giving by his radio based on whatever the pit crew sees on the telemetry screen.

As you can see that still doesnt prevent the driver from dynamic setup chages.


Who said anything about data loggers? As far as I know they are mendatory for collision and accident reasons.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by dani_d_mas Wrong. My sequential gearbox is mechanic since it has a clutch... which is used in the downshifts. There is a cut-off for the upshifts which allows you to accelerate flat out without pressing the clutch. This has nothing to do with the word 'auto'. It's mechanic... just as a bike gearbox There isn't any computer controlling it... just the cut-off with cuts the ignition to allow the gear to be engaged, so it has nothing to do with any DSG or SMG box you seem to have in mind. And all I say is true and contrasted since I have it in my car - basically the best thing the Clio has!

I really think there is a mis understand.

A stock clio, just like an NSX come with an H pattern box right?

Altering that to be easier to use, like a sequential box is a form of driver aid It is that simple mate.


Now what our GT1 friend is saying that the JGTC is completly man and machine clean of driver aids which is the biggest load of bullshit I ever heard.

THose cars are competly adjustble from the inside making it the cheating bastard series of teh world.

Anyway, Im outta here, really dont want to spend any more time on this then I already did.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by dani_d_mas What about the F1 then?? cheating bastard series of the world?? :roll: Dude, this is 2006 - check any racecar you want... and almost all of them have 'driver aids' as you've described them - from the ALMS to the WTCC, even the Renault Clio Cup! And if there is a reglament... with the money invested in those championships by the japanese constructors - don't you think that if Nissan ever cheated... Toyota or Honda would appeal claming that cheat??

F1 is the worst of them all That TCS until you hit 100kmh or whatever is compelete bullshit......cheating bastard? Hell yea!

Ofcourse all cars have driver aids these days. But JGTC has the most of them Point me where you see in car adjusble suspension componets in FIA GT then Ill shut up. Show me electornicaly assisted steering racks in alms or fia gt and then Ill shut up.

ALMS is a cheating bastard too. The Vettes use TC at one point.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan.....they are all cheating bastards...Your point being? The whole series is a cheating bunch of wankers

I think your missing all points Dani by a country mile. By cheating I dont mean directly going against the rules, because I said previously at the very begining those rules that GT1 posted I dunno who they for, what they for or what they are doing there because most of them are contradicted. AFAIK the teams negotiate with the governing body and run wtf they wish as long as all the right parties agree....ommiting the fact that there are a shit load of dirty politics in the likes on FIA GT, F1, ALMS, ELMS, JGTC.....

You remeber the so called "manual gearboxes" in F1? It was just hillarious when they showed onboard shots and you see that the drivers didnt even bother to imitate a gear change lol Only recently did we start to see the drivers actually using the gear flappies...

Cheating bastard means driver aids are used, not a man controlling brake pressure, not the man matching revs, not the man strugling to turn the wheel. Thats a cheating bastard.

You Dani are in the cleanest series of them all, because I have much more respect for blokes who drive minimal assisted vehincles in comparison to the cheating bastards of JGTC.


However none of the series currently use as much bullshit to aid the driver dynamcly in race then JGTC...Im sorry but onboard suspension managment kills the whole purpose of racing against the machine and adapting to surface and grip changes.....*Ooppppps looks like my rear end is a little loose, lets stiffen the rear damping a bit..click click..done*


Would you like to discuss the matter further?

All that fucking ABS, onboard suspnesion adjustments, electornicaly assited steering, automated gearboxes (anything that doesnt require the use of a clutch is automated, because they are not running clutchless gearboxes) all that shit is a form of cheating...


I really really dont see where you are going

[nthfinity]

I really really dont see where you are going

valentino rossi was within 1 second of MS record Fiorano time... with Zero F1 experience... sure Rossi is a very talented Moto GP driver... but 0 experience... its just sooo much less dependant on the driver.

albeit, that last second, its simply amazing to look at MS telemetry compared to even other F1 drivers!

anyway... making anybody fast doesnt make for good racing IMO... the best driver in some series, the best car in others... and F1 is supposed to be a combination of the 2... in 2003, Ferrari IMO didn't have the best car... but definately top 3... yet they still won... in 2005, Renault didn't have the best car either... but definately top 2...

anyway... i dont actually know much about JGTC... but the cars dont look like something that is re-designed to be a race car, but more of a styling exersize. the cars are fast, but there are reasons on why DTM is more popular then Aussie V8 supercars, and JGTC, and FIA GT is more popular then the both by light years. so what nascar is still more popular... it still sucks

[FoxFour]

Calm down guys! It seems to me that both of you are very knowledgeable about such things. This is turning into a good thread, except for the name-calling.

[gangajas]

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Originally Posted by dani_d_mas What about the F1 then?? cheating bastard series of the world?? :roll: Dude, this is 2006 - check any racecar you want... and almost all of them have 'driver aids' as you've described them - from the ALMS to the WTCC, even the Renault Clio Cup! And if there is a reglament... with the money invested in those championships by the japanese constructors - don't you think that if Nissan ever cheated... Toyota or Honda would appeal claming that cheat?? F1 is the worst of them all That TCS until you hit 100kmh or whatever is compelete bullshit......cheating bastard? Hell yea! Ofcourse all cars have driver aids these days. But JGTC has the most of them Point me where you see in car adjusble suspension componets in FIA GT then Ill shut up. Show me electornicaly assisted steering racks in alms or fia gt and then Ill shut up. ALMS is a cheating bastard too. The Vettes use TC at one point. Honda, Toyota, Nissan.....they are all cheating bastards...Your point being? The whole series is a cheating bunch of wankers I think your missing all points Dani by a country mile. By cheating I dont mean directly going against the rules, because I said previously at the very begining those rules that GT1 posted I dunno who they for, what they for or what they are doing there because most of them are contradicted. AFAIK the teams negotiate with the governing body and run wtf they wish as long as all the right parties agree....ommiting the fact that there are a shit load of dirty politics in the likes on FIA GT, F1, ALMS, ELMS, JGTC..... You remeber the so called "manual gearboxes" in F1? It was just hillarious when they showed onboard shots and you see that the drivers didnt even bother to imitate a gear change lol Only recently did we start to see the drivers actually using the gear flappies... Cheating bastard means driver aids are used, not a man controlling brake pressure, not the man matching revs, not the man strugling to turn the wheel. Thats a cheating bastard. You Dani are in the cleanest series of them all, because I have much more respect for blokes who drive minimal assisted vehincles in comparison to the cheating bastards of JGTC. However none of the series currently use as much bullshit to aid the driver dynamcly in race then JGTC...Im sorry but onboard suspension managment kills the whole purpose of racing against the machine and adapting to surface and grip changes.....*Ooppppps looks like my rear end is a little loose, lets stiffen the rear damping a bit..click click..done* Would you like to discuss the matter further? All that fucking ABS, onboard suspnesion adjustments, electornicaly assited steering, automated gearboxes (anything that doesnt require the use of a clutch is automated, because they are not running clutchless gearboxes) all that shit is a form of cheating... I really really dont see where you are going

Come on, we are in the 21st Century, technology is something good and necessary. But maybe you 'd prefer something like this: