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gucom · 11-12-2006, 12:24 PM

my point is, its little use "owning the shit out of" hostage-takers if you kill half of the hostages in the process :roll:

TopGearNL · 11-12-2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by gucom

my point is, its little use "owning the shit out of" hostage-takers if you kill half of the hostages in the process :roll:

Couldn't agree more Gucom!

BADMIHAI · 11-12-2006, 02:21 PM

I guess it's better to give in to the terrorists' demands and give them billions of dollars, like the American government has been doing for the last 20+ years, right?

gucom · 11-12-2006, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by BADMIHAI

I guess it's better to give in to the terrorists' demands and give them billions of dollars, like the American government has been doing for the last 20+ years, right?

i dont know to what extent that's true, but 2 answers:
-from a family/friends point of view: HELL YEAH if you can get your loved ones back without risk
-from a strategic / nationwide point of view: no it'll just stimulate other hostagetakings.

However, your original post on the hostage situation came across as admiring of the spetznaz performance there, while its kind of obvious they (not nescessarily spetznaz but whoever decided to intoxicate every1) pretty much fucked it up... i believe (and surely hope) units like Delta would find a better way of solving a situation like that...

Mattk · 11-12-2006, 09:19 PM

my point is, its little use "owning the shit out of" hostage-takers if you kill half of the hostages in the process

More like gas them all to death. The Spetznaz killed more hostages than the terrorists. I would be thinking that that particular incident be an example of hostage rescue gone wrong.

BADMIHAI · 11-12-2006, 11:27 PM

Yes, the Spetznaz killed the hostages. :roll: That's a great piece of speculation from you. Please enlighten me on the wide variety of choices available in a situation where religious fanatics armed to the teeth have over 800 hostages in a theatre that they have also rigged with explosives. I think they did a fabulous job in saving as many people as they did. It also sent a clear message they are not to be fucked with. Had they negociated with the terrorist it would have made room for the proliferation of terrorist incidents in the Russian Federation.

Mattk · 11-12-2006, 11:38 PM

I think they did a fabulous job in saving as many people as they did.

Hmm...like, none. If they had charged in guns blazing, they would at least have saved some hostages. By gassing the theatre, they all died.

RAMMIUS · 11-13-2006, 04:11 AM

More like gas them all to death. The Spetznaz killed more hostages than the terrorists. I would be thinking that that particular incident be an example of hostage rescue gone wrong.

You are starting to become annoying with your lack of knowledge.
First learn to write Spetsnaz not Spetznaz.

NAME one single occasion when so many hostages in a huge open space had to be rescued ? Don`t search you won`t find.
750 hostages , can you understand ? and 50 !!!!!!!! terrorists
THEY had to use that gas in order to save the hostages, it`s a tragedy that 129 people died, but if we study your simple logic

If they had charged in guns blazing, they would at least have saved some hostages

, it would have been the biggest massacre imaginable.

You`re telling the best HR units in the world that they did something wrong

.
FSB`s Alpha and Vympel, for you knowledge, are units with a remarcable service record.

If they had charged in guns blazing

Thank God that all those counter-terror experts are exactly your opposite

Mattk · 11-13-2006, 06:01 AM

it would have been the biggest massacre imaginable.

Around 170 odd hostages dying of gas poisoning not enough of a massacre for you?

FSB`s Alpha and Vympel, for you knowledge, are units with a remarcable service record.

What about Beslan? A few hundred people died there in a similar siege situation.

I'm not saying that Spetsnaz are absolutely terrible, but you really can't ignore the fact that during a couple of recent operations, far more hostages than terrorists have died.

RAMMIUS · 11-13-2006, 06:41 AM

They did the scenario, meaning they kept the hostages in a big place , this time it was the gymnasium.
Because there were kids the special units couldn`t use that gas.

Exactly WHAT HAPPENED there is unclear to this day.

For your consideration only the russians encounetered this kind of scenarios, and saying that Unit X or Y from God knows what country would have done better it`s utterly childish.

Some of the best units in the world at this kind of jobs are Israeli, and even they had there part of bad luck, when they tried to rescue 1 (one!) soldier being held hostage, and the mission went tottaly wrong.

Ahhhh, you`re young, do you know something about Waco, Texas and the Davidian Branch ? I doubt .

76 killed people and 21 children

It was a complete fiasco

The russsians are one of the most skilled in the domain, either you like it or not.

Mattk · 11-13-2006, 06:51 AM

Ahhhh, you`re young, do you know something about Waco, Texas and the Davidian Branch ? I doubt .

Yeah, Tim McVeigh the Oklahoma City bomber got quite pissed about that.

I understand that you can't look at stuff in hindsight and start criticising the people involved, but I wouldn't really call Beslan or the Theatre success stories in the objective sense.

In that particular theatre scenario, the Russians used a gas which had deadly consequences. You'd think they would have used a non-lethal anaesthetic of some sort...

RAMMIUS · 11-13-2006, 07:06 AM

At WACO there were NO survivors, unlike the russian siege, where a lot of people were rescued.

Taking in consideratin the fact that at WACO there were Delta Force guys as advisors and the rescue was a failure should we say that american are incompetent ? Of course not, it would foolish to say something like that.

but I wouldn't really call Beslan or the Theatre success stories in the objective sense

now you`re getting philosophical and it does not suit you
The RUSSIANS did the best job they could, and they were confornted with an atipical situation .

At Beslan nobody knows for sure what happened but in Moscow they did a BRILLIANT job.

Mattk · 11-13-2006, 07:58 AM

but in Moscow they did a BRILLIANT job.

Now that's getting a bit ridiculous. I'm sure they didn't reflect afterwards by going "What an excellent rescue operation, only 170 or so hostages died".

RAMMIUS · 11-13-2006, 09:21 AM

In that situation the outcome was great, I must repeat :

Huge open space : 750 hostages , 50 !!!!! terrorists - an unparalled number for both.

IF the terrorist would have been armed only with assault rifles then the outcome would have been different, but taking in consideration the fact that almost all of them had strapped to their waist bombs AND had the trigger in their hands at the slightest sign of assault one could only imagine the carnage.

Pouring that gas into the building, (that killed a lot of people afterwards , yes gas killed them not shootimg), was the only way to prepare for the assault.

TopGearNL · 11-13-2006, 09:25 AM

Yeah well you win some you loose some