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graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 06:37 PM

ITs actually quite easily.. Dodge the first punch.. grab the arm.. put it behind them.. sweep the legs out.. sit on the hands and start punching in the back of the head or twisting the arm so it almost breaks. I can effectively render you armless in about 2 seconds with some of the moves I know (incredibly important in wrestling as one of your best defenses against a shot is your hands.. If I pin them behind you in some way even in wrestling your screwed), and without training you wont get out of it. How do I know that last bit.. Because there are moves you can put a freshman wrestler in and he will never get out. Its just counter intuitive on how to get out.

Its actually extremely easy to take someone out without grappler training if your an experienced wrestler. Keep in mind.. Im not some random wrestler.. I was a state champion back in the day. We arent talking about joe schmoe who wrestled for a day here.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 06:55 PM

Thats great mate, you do all that as if you have a manikin standing in front you

I want to see you to succesfuly do all that. First of I wonder how you are going to dodge the first punch...I mean what are the odds you will even see the first punch coming...

Then I wonder how you will just grab someones arm while trying to take them down and they are in a boxing stance?

Then I wonder how you come within the range to actually grabing me, cause if you that close trying to just wrestle your head is coming off.

I'm just shocked that you think everything will work by your plan and not the other way around...

Some bold shit, If I didnt know better Id think you are completly delusional, state champ or average joe.

How the fuck can you be so confident you can take a man down... Im confident that you will take a few cuts on the face before it even goes down.

You know what I think? I think you fought the wrong people, or dont watch any professional MMA fights.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 06:59 PM

Actually, a wrestler has been trained, just like any person who is trained in a fighting sport.. to see attacks comming based on indications of your body. So thats how.. They dont have to see your arm.. Neither do I.. Just the movement of your body gives it away.. Your stance even.. Clarkson had an interesting show on speed that mentioned it. I dont actually ever see your arms move, I see the indications that your arm will move. And that is key even in wrestling.

You clearly don't understand wrestling.. The key isnt trying to take them down while they swing at you.. The key is to use the force of their punch to take them down and push their arm behind them.. It requires no energy at all if you follow the natural motion of their body and weight.

Theres some really simple basic wrestling moves and they are all based on weight transfer.. You use the power of the swing to your advantage..
A boxer is going to swing at your cheat or head.. If you can read as you have to in all martial arts.. Your going to be able to respond.. its knowing how to respond thats the key. If you miss with the read. you get hit.. but then you pull out and strike from lower. In essence the boxers only chance in such a fight is to keep you at arms length long enough to knock you out.. You get in too close hes screwed. Thats seen time and time again in mwa.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

Actually, a wrestler has been trained, just like any person who is trained in a fighting sport.. to see attacks comming based on indications of your body. So thats how.. They dont have to see your arm.. Neither do I.. Just the movement of your body gives it away.. Your stance even..

You clearly don't understand wrestling.. The key isnt trying to take them down why they swing at you.. The key is to use the force of their punch to take them down. Theres some really simple basic wrestling moves and they are all based on weight transfer.. You use the power of the swing to your advantage..
A boxer is going to swing at your cheat or head.. If you can read as you have to in all martial arts.. Your going to be able to respond.. its knowing how to respond thats the key.

Who said Ill be the first man throwing the punch?

I'll wait till you commit and use that force to turn the tables.

I see a man on the floor trying to throw me down, he's commited, I step back and soccer kick his head, neck or whatever exposted part of the body.

Gray your thinking that the guy in front of you is a stupid monkey that will play into your cards, thats were your thinking is flawed.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 07:06 PM

wait till you commit and use that force to turn the tables.

I see a man on the floor trying to throw me down, he's commited, I step back and soccer kick his head, neck or whatever exposted part of the body.

Why the hell would a man be on the floor.. You never actually sit on the ground in a wrestling shot.. If you do your screwed. For a throw you never even get close.. its done from up close standing.. And if they have you in the right hold to throw, you wont be stepping back.. its just too quick a move.. The keys to defeating it are to never get put in it or try to roll through.. Neither of which will you be trained to do.

And I hate to break it to you, but a wrestler, unless hes foolish or hot headed, would probably wait for you to throw a punch or somehow shift your weight. Everything in wrestling involves drawing the other person out and then taking advantage, at least for the good wrestlers. You get someone to react or act.. then you act.. You never just go swing.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 07:07 PM

BTW Im arguing that wrestling wont win you a fight alone. Just like boxing alone would be useless, since its the art of the fist.

But you seem to insist that wrestling is the asnwer to all.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 07:09 PM

No.. Im arguing that wrestling with basic punching skills > then just boxing. Whether its because striking basics are more intuitive or because wrestling is not...
A mix is best in everything. With boxing you have one weapon, and only one weapon. It has some severe difficiencies. Wrestling at least has the training in both standing and down situations. Boxing does not.. That makes it screwed imho.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

And I hate to break it to you, but a wrestler, unless hes foolish or hot headed, would probably wait for you to throw a punch or somehow shift your weight. Everything in wrestling involves drawing the other person out and then taking advantage, at least for the good wrestlers. You get someone to react or act.. then you act.. You never just go swing.

If you are up close standing to me then I can assure you that I can land a combo on you that you would never anticipate coming havent had boxed before.

Arm punches dont swing a whole lot of weight around, my extended jab to your nose will not aid you in some big weight transfer.

I'm not a hockey goon that will swing his whole body upon throwing a punch.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 07:11 PM

You arent expected to be.. Any movement at all is enough.. As a boxer you should know that in terms of opening up a shot. The problem is.. The same goes for throws.. and you dont understand close up.. Close up is defined similar to what they break up in boxing.. If a wrestler gets that close in your already done. Your real only chance is to keep him out from that distance.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

No.. Im arguing that wrestling with basic punching skills > then just boxing. Whether its because striking basics are more intuitive or because wrestling is not...
A mix is best in everything. With boxing you have one weapon, and only one weapon. It has some severe difficiencies. Wrestling at least has the training in both standing and down situations. Boxing does not.. That makes it screwed imho.

Ok wrestling with a little punching > boxing.

Now to say that wrestling > a trained offencive striker that uses knees, elbows, fists, kicks is laughable.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 07:14 PM

Now to say that wrestling > a trained offencive striker that uses knees, elbows, fists, kicks is laughable.

Still greater.. a strained striker cant do it on the ground.. If the wrestler gets him to the ground its over.

Wrestling < a trained striker that also has a decent amount of basic grappling training. (decent doesnt mean a wrestler, but rather someone who has had at least several weeks of basic training) K1 and UFC both showed that in their early years.
In other words.. In a choice between buster douglas and a k1 fighter at the top echelons.. Ill take old buster (only boxer I really remember to be honest) sinc ehte k1 has had grapple training if hes at that level.. And if he knows the basics enough to keep me on my feet Im toast. But the basics arent intuitive.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

You arent expected to be.. Any movement at all is enough.. As a boxer you should know that in terms of opening up a shot. The problem is.. The same goes for throws.. and you dont understand close up.. Close up is defined similar to what they break up in boxing.. If a wrestler gets that close in your already done.

Well I stand by the idea that you will not come close enough to anything like a boxing clinch in the first place.

And once again, who said I will commit, and who said I wont make you believe that I am comiting and then counter with something you would normaly not see coming.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 07:18 PM

^Its possible.. especially given my age and how rusty I am... But thats where you start to get into the 50-50 bare knuckle.. One punch isnt going to cut it.. Your going to have to fool the wrestler enough times to really hurt him. Wear gloves and I think your stacking the odds in the wrestlers favor.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

If the wrestler gets him to the ground its over.

.

That word is the key here. Dont you agree?

If the striker gets him to stand, or IF the wrestler throws him down.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 07:20 PM

The problem is.. In almost every fight it ultimately ends up on the ground, both at the k1/ufc level and in a street fight. I think Ive seen 1 fight in my life that didnt eventually go to the ground or end cause someone broke it up... And a drunk guy getting knocked out bare knuckle isnt all that impressive. Thats a hell of an if to bank on. Id be more likely to bank on gouging someones eyes out so they cant see then I would that youd take an entire fight standing. Even in boxing itself the clinch happens many times.. ITs just natural.