American cars in the UK?British cars in the US?etc.Thoughts?

[Global Warming]

Originally Posted by ferrarif1fan89 Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere Originally Posted by T-Bird You have to remember Richard also liked the new Mustang and Cadillac CTS, Clarkson loved the Viper, they said the Corvette was fun but complained about the suspension. They were happy that the Elise was redesigned for the US market And let’s also not forget the GTO. Yes it’s a Holden and yes it’s made in Australia but it has an American corvette engine and Clarkson said "if you are buying any other car besides the GTO in its price range you are dumb and boring!" Or something very close to that lol. And that was the 5.7l GTO they haven't even tested the 6.0 400HP GTO that you can buy here for only 31k!! That’s only around 15,000 pounds!! You can argue over if it’s more of an American car, or more or an Australian car but one thing is for sure, it’s just about the most kick ass thing you will EVER be able to buy for such a low price!! sorry, but if i were getting something in that price range, i'd like my cars to turn. so my money would go for either a used m3 or an rx8.

Hah well if you watched Clarkson test drive the GTO you would know it doesn’t need to be steered. As he put it you can basically steer the car while looking out the side window!! And as far as it’s over all steering I think it did pretty well when Stig drove it. Didn’t it beat the NSX-R? Even if not I know it destroyed the M3. And that was just the 5.7L not the 6.0L!!

Watch for yourself - http://www.justcommodores.com.au/tem...gear_large.zip

Jeremy, Richard and James just go on and on about how great this car is. And all of us in America can buy the 6.0L for HALF of what it costs them!!

The 6.0 GTO is just crazy power and performance for the price!

[Sir_GT]

Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere Originally Posted by Sir_GT Originally Posted by T-Bird And that was the 5.7l GTO they haven't even tested the 6.0 400HP GTO that you can buy here for only 31k!! That’s only around 15,000 pounds!! Mate, if the GTO/Monaro was only £15 grand over here, I wouldn't have bought a 1-series. The GTO/Monaro is £29,999-35,000 depending on the model IIRC. That's what? $60,000? I didn’t know it was 30,000 pounds there. Yeah that is very expensive. With the pound being worth almost double the dollar i'm curious... How much does an audio CD cost there? How much are movie tickets? Is everything double or is it relative. I was in London in 2000 but the dollar was a lot stronger then. Are you guys making a lot more income? I mean are average computer tech jobs paying 30 - 40,000 pounds a year? Or is that a big income for that job like $80,000 would be here?

An audio CD (album) would be anywhere between £10-15. Computer tech jobs pay around exactly what you quoted... sometimes even £55,000 if you're lucky.

Car prices are basically... replace the $ sign with a £ sign. It's because of all the gov't bulltax.

[jumpman23]

I like European cars, but American cars are making a comeback in the performance scene with the Corvette C6 Z06, the new Mustang Shelby GT500, or the Charger SRT-8. It is an interesting question, and what shows like Top Gear and 5th Gear rip about American cars is the 'bloated' feel of an American car. I think American cars are improving and I did forget to mention that the luxury American cars are also improving. Give it time I guess, because America is attempting to blitz the market with high-performace models.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere Hah dude, I don’t know what to say... you keep going back to cars like the DB7?!? That’s a $100,000 car, all Aston Martins are consider by most to be “supercars”!! What is that your day car when your not driving that Zonda in you sig? lol You better hope the Aston Martin stays very exclusive at that price! If your only argument is that a DB7 or DB9 are a lot better than all American cars even if it is now owned by Ford… I don’t think anyone will argue with you!! LOL But if we are comparing general car quality by country and want to talk about realistic cars you should be comparing the jag X-Type to a 300 C, etc.

Who said the arguement was constrained to realistic everday cars?

Comparing American sports cars to other worldwide sportscars is fairly reasonable: the vette, Ford GT etc are relatively good cars performance wise (not that they'd be my choice).

But comparing the majority of American everyday cars to Euro/Jap cars IMO is completely one sided. American saloons etc are complete crap in comparison.

The exception being a few models in the Ford range; at least the ones sold over here. They are fairly comparable in the European market.

Just about anything else is not at all...

[Global Warming]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere Hah dude, I don’t know what to say... you keep going back to cars like the DB7?!? That’s a $100,000 car, all Aston Martins are consider by most to be “supercars”!! What is that your day car when your not driving that Zonda in you sig? lol You better hope the Aston Martin stays very exclusive at that price! If your only argument is that a DB7 or DB9 are a lot better than all American cars even if it is now owned by Ford… I don’t think anyone will argue with you!! LOL But if we are comparing general car quality by country and want to talk about realistic cars you should be comparing the jag X-Type to a 300 C, etc. Who said the arguement was constrained to realistic everday cars? Comparing American sports cars to other worldwide sportscars is fairly reasonable: the vette, Ford GT etc are relatively good cars performance wise (not that they'd be my choice). But comparing the majority of American everyday cars to Euro/Jap cars IMO is completely one sided. American saloons etc are complete crap in comparison. The exception being a few models in the Ford range; at least the ones sold over here. They are fairly comparable in the European market. Just about anything else is not at all...

Well you don’t seem to make much sense in anything you say but that’s cool. Ford is laughing all the way to the bank over your beloved Astin Martin and Jaguar. Chrysler (Mercedes) and GM are over almost all other European brands. Like I pointed out GM owns 20% of Fiat,Ferrari, etc. so they are getting a chunk of those profits too. So American cars suck even though American companies are making the money on almost all the cars you do like. That seems about right. Europe can keep making the cars and America will just make the money

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere So American cars suck even though American companies are making the money on almost all the cars you do like. That seems about right. Europe can keep making the cars and America will just make the money

Lol, guess you just admitted yourself the argument i was putting forward there

There's a lot of difference between who owns the company and what cars they make relative to the country of origin

[Global Warming]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere So American cars suck even though American companies are making the money on almost all the cars you do like. That seems about right. Europe can keep making the cars and America will just make the money Lol, guess you just admitted yourself the argument i was putting forward there There's a lot of difference between who owns the company and what cars they make relative to the country of origin

No I didn’t agree to that at all. I'm just sick of saying the same things over and over and have you continue to not get it. Those companies you call British are AMERICAN now. They can’t so much as design a turn signal lever without it being approved by the parent American company!! And the way they make cars is going to change drastically over the next 5 years. But like I said, Ford and the other American companies don’t mind that you like to pretend they are still British. At least that way you can trick yourself into being happy about driving around in an American car.

[Sir_GT]

Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere No I didn’t agree to that at all. I'm just sick of saying the same things over and over and have you continue to not get it. Those companies you call British are AMERICAN now. They can’t so much as design a turn signal lever without it being approved by the parent American company!! And the way they make cars is going to change drastically over the next 5 years. But like I said, Ford and the other American companies don’t mind that you like to pretend they are still British. At least that way you can trick yourself into being happy about driving around in an American car.

Honestly mate, that's not entirely true.

Although parts-sharing does exist, most of the management is pretty much autonomous. Of course, it goes without saying that if the profits are poor, the management is going to be quickly replaced, via orders from the American parent company. That does not necessarily follow that the bosses at Aston, Vauxhall, or even Jaguar have to ring up Ford and GM every day to get something approved.

If anything, the Americans are wise enough to leave the management of English companies to the English. Or the Italian companies to the Italians. Who else would be best suited to understand the market in question, right? Could you imagine if the tables were turned, and Toyota owned Aston, Land Rover, and Jaguar? Do you think they would appoint a Japanese chap to run those companies? Of course not, because he wouldn't have a clue how to make a European company profitable in Europe.

I applaud Ford for having the forsight and purchasing Land Rover, Jaguar, and Aston Martin, then having the faith and infusing them with enough capital to turn them into what they are today. That, however, does not change the fact that their own cars aren't up to competitors's standards.
If anything, Ford, GM, and the other American companies are in a position to match the German companies in terms of luxury, build quality, performance, and price, simply because of the way America's economy is setup.

Yet, because of complacency and a very, possibly even unreasonable, tunnel-minded focus on profits, they seemed (I say seemed because there is not enough concrete evidence) to have chose to sit by the wayside and let the industry pass them by. This is what Fiat did, and now they're feeling the brunt of that decision. Ford and GM are both guilty of this, and now their apparent choice of not investing enough in R&D has finally caught up with them.

I still like "American" cars, even though they're shite compared to their European and Japanese equivalents, simply because they have a lot of soul and character. It's just a shame that they couldn't have been any better in all the other aspects.

We're not "pretending" that English companies are still English. Just because they are owned by American companies doesnt make them any less European... Is Lamborghini now German because Audi-VW owns them? Of course not. There still IS a difference mate, and there is still a difference between European-built cars that are owned by American companies, and the cars built by the latter. We don't have to pretend. It's as plain as paper.

[graywolf624]

While the original reason the Americans got passed was due to complacency, the reason they continue to struggle in terms of quality of certain things(but certainly not reliability as now gm owns more the top then anyone but toyota) is because of legacy costs.

Unlike the Japenese our unions and retirement costs are outrageous, sometimes as high as 4 retired workers to support per every regular worker. As a result our car industry is hamstrung. Blame it on the same unions that caused the UK car companies to go out of business.

[T-Bird]

now are you girls argueing about American cars as in cars made directly by Ford for example or cars made in America?

[Global Warming]

Originally Posted by Sir_GT Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere No I didn’t agree to that at all. I'm just sick of saying the same things over and over and have you continue to not get it. Those companies you call British are AMERICAN now. They can’t so much as design a turn signal lever without it being approved by the parent American company!! And the way they make cars is going to change drastically over the next 5 years. But like I said, Ford and the other American companies don’t mind that you like to pretend they are still British. At least that way you can trick yourself into being happy about driving around in an American car. Honestly mate, that's not entirely true. Although parts-sharing does exist, most of the management is pretty much autonomous. Of course, it goes without saying that if the profits are poor, the management is going to be quickly replaced, via orders from the American parent company. That does not necessarily follow that the bosses at Aston, Vauxhall, or even Jaguar have to ring up Ford and GM every day to get something approved. If anything, the Americans are wise enough to leave the management of English companies to the English. Or the Italian companies to the Italians. Who else would be best suited to understand the market in question, right? Could you imagine if the tables were turned, and Toyota owned Aston, Land Rover, and Jaguar? Do you think they would appoint a Japanese chap to run those companies? Of course not, because he wouldn't have a clue how to make a European company profitable in Europe. I applaud Ford for having the forsight and purchasing Land Rover, Jaguar, and Aston Martin, then having the faith and infusing them with enough capital to turn them into what they are today. That, however, does not change the fact that their own cars aren't up to competitors's standards. If anything, Ford, GM, and the other American companies are in a position to match the German companies in terms of luxury, build quality, performance, and price, simply because of the way America's economy is setup. Yet, because of complacency and a very, possibly even unreasonable, tunnel-minded focus on profits, they seemed (I say seemed because there is not enough concrete evidence) to have chose to sit by the wayside and let the industry pass them by. This is what Fiat did, and now they're feeling the brunt of that decision. Ford and GM are both guilty of this, and now their apparent choice of not investing enough in R&D has finally caught up with them. I still like "American" cars, even though they're shite compared to their European and Japanese equivalents, simply because they have a lot of soul and character. It's just a shame that they couldn't have been any better in all the other aspects. We're not "pretending" that English companies are still English. Just because they are owned by American companies doesnt make them any less European... Is Lamborghini now German because Audi-VW owns them? Of course not. There still IS a difference mate, and there is still a difference between European-built cars that are owned by American companies, and the cars built by the latter. We don't have to pretend. It's as plain as paper.

Well I guess I agree with your IS to a point. That is true today and has been in the past. And as far as Jaguar only getting a call from Ford if their profits slip!? LOL You really don’t understand the auto world! If you believe that and only like Jaguar because of its great British past I suggest you go out and buy one TODAY! Because that is not going to be the future of any of the former British companies.

Ford does not call Jag up on the phone every now and then… The live, breathe and operate inside it! All future cars from all the ford brands from now on will be built, designed, and manufactured around a master global auto strategy to do one thing... Make as much money as possible!!

If you believe anything else you are just kidding yourself.. Mate! LOL


P.S. Is Lamborghini now German because Audi-VW owns them? I would say almost! VW has basically saved the dying lambo and this isn’t the first time lambo had to be bailed out. They built the body for the BMW M1 back when they were almost bankrupt one of the many times before. I think they built many of their cars outside of Italy during those times too. The name Lamborghini is still Italian but they would have been history a long time ago if it wasn’t for other companies. So yes I consider lambo as much German now as it is Italian, of course. How could you not?? Do you know how much VW and Audi have been a part of the Murciélago and Gallardo!?!?!

[Sir_GT]

Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere Well I guess I agree with your IS to a point. That is true today and has been in the past. And as far as Jaguar only getting a call from Ford if their profits slip!? LOL

You're oversimplifying what I said. It goes without saying that Ford leaves the day to day management to whoever they trust to run their European brands. Yes, all the companies are part of a global strategy where the parent company is the hub, but the European arms of these companies STILL have to operate based on their region.

You really don’t understand the auto world!

Errrr... according to you? Sorry mate, but you've yet to provide any evidence to back your accusation. Regardless, I think I've just pointed out that my original post wasn't to be understood in the manner with which you did. In fact, your retort has almost nothing to do with what I originally said, but I'll respond anyway.

If you believe that and only like Jaguar because of its great British past I suggest you go out and buy one TODAY! Because that is not going to be the future of any of the former British companies.

I never said anything to that tune at all.

Ford does not call Jag up on the phone every now and then… The live, breathe and operate inside it! All future cars from all the ford brands from now on will be built, designed, and manufactured around a master global auto strategy to do one thing... Make as much money as possible!!

Absolutely. How do you think they propose to do this? Through the "Americanizing" of their European brands? By way of appointing Billy Joe Redneck to run Aston Martin's Gaydon Headquarters?

Seriously now.

So far, all you've proven is your apparent misconception of how a global business is run. Ford HQ/USA cannot run the daily operations of their European arms from the US. Why? Because they're not in Europe. It is, as you Yanks call it, a "no-brainer."

Ford HQ/USA/Detroit do not phone up Jaguar HQ at Coventry and go: "Hey man, our F150's are sellin' like mutha fuckin' hotcakes over 'ere... how about you boys start sellin' Jagyee-ar pick-up trucks? I've got the parts ready fo' delivery, yes-siree!"

Crikey, imagine that? I bet the UK market will be salivating at the thought of Jaguar-badged flatbeds.

:roll:


No. It doesn't work that way. Jaguar HQ/Coventry are the ones who tell Ford HQ/USA/Detroit what they (Jag) need to succeed in the UK market. Ford HQ/USA/Detroit is the "daddy" that grants the allowance and authority in order for Jaguar HQ/Coventry to operate in the way it (Jag UK) deems necessary to succeed.

If "daddy" Ford HQ/USA/Detroit thinks that Jag UK's plans are do-able, then they give the go-ahead, and Jag UK moves. Yes, Ford HQ/USA/Detroit own Jaguar. There is no denying that. But the fact remains that Jaguar UK has to find out for itself, what it needs to do to succeed.

Again, it goes without saying, that at the end of the day, if what Jaguar UK says is needed to be done to succeed is done, but does not succeed, heads are going to roll... because Ford HQ/USA/Detroit said so.

But. That does not change the fact that Jaguar, Aston, or even Land Rover, are still largely in part, being run by Europeans. Hence, they are still viewed as "European", and not "American" simply because of who posseses ownership.

Is Chelsea FC a Russian team now that their owner is Russian? Is Arsenal now a French team because the manager is French? Is Manchester United going to be an American team because an American is going to take over them?

Again, the answer is a "no-brainer." The answer is no.

If you believe anything else you are just kidding yourself.. Mate! LOL

Common sense will tell you that it's not me who is kidding myself.

P.S. Is Lamborghini now German because Audi-VW owns them? I would say almost! VW has basically saved the dying lambo and this isn’t the first time lambo had to be bailed out. They built the body for the BMW M1 back when they were almost bankrupt one of the many times before. I think they built many of their cars outside of Italy during those times too. The name Lamborghini is still Italian but they would have been history a long time ago if it wasn’t for other companies. So yes I consider lambo as much German now as it is Italian, of course. How could you not?? Do you know how much VW and Audi have been a part of the Murciélago and Gallardo!?!?!

This post of yours pretty much sums up your understanding of how global car companies are managed. I think I'll leave it up to whoever decides to read it to judge. Also, my original post had nothing to do with what you said. I was discussing how great the differences are between European or Japanese-built cars and their American counterparts, and the fact that there is no excuse for the latter's embarassing products.

Ciao.

*Goes off to Oxfordshire, in Oxford, in search of some GERMAN Mini's*

[T-Bird]

Originally Posted by Sir_GT Originally Posted by Global Hemisphere Well I guess I agree with your IS to a point. That is true today and has been in the past. And as far as Jaguar only getting a call from Ford if their profits slip!? LOL You're oversimplifying what I said. It goes without saying that Ford leaves the day to day management to whoever they trust to run their European brands. Yes, all the companies are part of a global strategy where the parent company is the hub, but the European arms of these companies STILL have to operate based on their region. You really don’t understand the auto world! Errrr... according to you? Sorry mate, but you've yet to provide any evidence to back your accusation. Regardless, I think I've just pointed out that my original post wasn't to be understood in the manner with which you did. In fact, your retort has almost nothing to do with what I originally said, but I'll respond anyway. If you believe that and only like Jaguar because of its great British past I suggest you go out and buy one TODAY! Because that is not going to be the future of any of the former British companies. I never said anything to that tune at all. Ford does not call Jag up on the phone every now and then… The live, breathe and operate inside it! All future cars from all the ford brands from now on will be built, designed, and manufactured around a master global auto strategy to do one thing... Make as much money as possible!! Absolutely. How do you think they propose to do this? Through the "Americanizing" of their European brands? By way of appointing Billy Joe Redneck to run Aston Martin's Gaydon Headquarters? Seriously now. So far, all you've proven is your apparent misconception of how a global business is run. Ford HQ/USA cannot run the daily operations of their European arms from the US. Why? Because they're not in Europe. It is, as you Yanks call it, a "no-brainer." Ford HQ/USA/Detroit do not phone up Jaguar HQ at Coventry and go: "Hey man, our F150's are sellin' like mutha fuckin' hotcakes over 'ere... how about you boys start sellin' Jagyee-ar pick-up trucks? I've got the parts ready fo' delivery, yes-siree!" Crikey, imagine that? I bet the UK market will be salivating at the thought of Jaguar-badged flatbeds. :roll: No. It doesn't work that way. Jaguar HQ/Coventry are the ones who tell Ford HQ/USA/Detroit what they (Jag) need to succeed in the UK market. Ford HQ/USA/Detroit is the "daddy" that grants the allowance and authority in order for Jaguar HQ/Coventry to operate in the way it (Jag UK) deems necessary to succeed. If "daddy" Ford HQ/USA/Detroit thinks that Jag UK's plans are do-able, then they give the go-ahead, and Jag UK moves. Yes, Ford HQ/USA/Detroit own Jaguar. There is no denying that. But the fact remains that Jaguar UK has to find out for itself, what it needs to do to succeed. Again, it goes without saying, that at the end of the day, if what Jaguar UK says is needed to be done to succeed is done, but does not succeed, heads are going to roll... because Ford HQ/USA/Detroit said so. But. That does not change the fact that Jaguar, Aston, or even Land Rover, are still largely in part, being run by Europeans. Hence, they are still viewed as "European", and not "American" simply because of who posseses ownership. Is Chelsea FC a Russian team now that their owner is Russian? Is Arsenal now a French team because the manager is French? Is Manchester United going to be an American team because an American is going to take over them? Again, the answer is a "no-brainer." The answer is no. If you believe anything else you are just kidding yourself.. Mate! LOL Common sense will tell you that it's not me who is kidding myself. P.S. Is Lamborghini now German because Audi-VW owns them? I would say almost! VW has basically saved the dying lambo and this isn’t the first time lambo had to be bailed out. They built the body for the BMW M1 back when they were almost bankrupt one of the many times before. I think they built many of their cars outside of Italy during those times too. The name Lamborghini is still Italian but they would have been history a long time ago if it wasn’t for other companies. So yes I consider lambo as much German now as it is Italian, of course. How could you not?? Do you know how much VW and Audi have been a part of the Murciélago and Gallardo!?!?! This post of yours pretty much sums up your understanding of how global car companies are managed. I think I'll leave it up to whoever decides to read it to judge. Also, my original post had nothing to do with what you said. I was discussing how great the differences are between European or Japanese-built cars and their American counterparts, and the fact that there is no excuse for the latter's embarassing products. Ciao. *Goes off to Oxfordshire, in Oxford, in search of some GERMAN Mini's*

You narrow minded prick you assume everyone in the entire United States is a redneck and talks like they are from the south, since when is detroit the deep south I guess the execs at Ford need to park their cars at the dock and hop on the boat to get to the office huh? I bet they have to watch out for them there gators that got their Pa on the way too huh? And it was their sister I mean wife (all the same to you right) that suggest the Jageeyar Pickup right?

[Global Warming]

LMFAO!! Sir_GT you just made an ass out of yourself! I thought people that acted like you only lived in the USA. You underline my point. You are close minded and don’t sound very worldly. Have you ever been to the USA? I have been to England. You’re an idiot that does not understand things and the fact that you can’t accept that American ownership will change the way your beloved cars will be made just shows you are hopelessly in denial.

P.S. It seems like you think ford just bought Jag, Astin etc. because they respected them so much. Now that they own them they will just sit back and let the former company’s genius employee’s continue doing such a great job, right? Did you ever stop and wonder why Jag and the other UK auto makers would have sold themselves to Ford in the first place?

It’s because they were flat broke and on the brink of bankrupsy!! I don’t think even the “hillbilly redneck” Ford people are stupid enough to let a company that had run itself into the ground continue with any resemblance of its former self!! I read that Astin Martin was so broke when Ford bought them that they wouldnt have been able to design a single side merror for the DB9 let alone the car it is today. And yes both the DB9 and DB7 have ford parts in them!! Ford went into these companies a SERIOUSLY CLEANED HOUSE! That is why now America gets all the credit for these brands. They are American!

[Global Warming]

Here you go mate - Jaguar S-type and 2000 Lincoln LS back in 1999. Jaguars were already just Fords in fancy clothes 5 years ago. The newer X-Type is completely a ford! You are really funny, you really beielver that Jag runs independently. Jag as you think of it, does not exist anymore and hasnt in years! Jag is little more than fancy dressings for FORD cars.

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/jag...rticleId=44139

Highlights -

"We recently had access to a 2000 Jaguar S-type for one week. Initially we were going to put the car through our standard battery of testing, but after pondering the fact that our recently acquired long-term Lincoln LS rides on the same platform, it seemed like a no-brainer to pit these fraternal twins against one another. Though Jaguar officials would likely cringe at the idea, cynical types (none of whom work here at Edmunds.com, of course) might go as far as calling the S-type a glorified Ford with a Jaguar hood ornament and a $15,000 price hike. To quell (or confirm) these rumors, we spent several days driving both vehicles on a combination of twisting mountain roads and open highways, as well as in rush-hour traffic around the Greater Los Angeles area."

"Well before climbing into either the LS or S-type it became clear that these cars have distinct personalities. Jaguar has infused their newest sedan with a timeless shape that harkens back to the 1960s S-type Saloons. With quad headlights surrounded by a small, circular grille and topped by the ubiquitous leaping cat, the new model combines a classic heritage with classy modern ambiance-at least when viewed from the front. Certain editors found the S-type's hindquarters less than flawless. Comments ranged from "It has Chevy Lumina body lines" to "Were those taillights ripped from a 2000 Dodge Neon or Nissan Maxima?" One editor also noted that the Jag's roofline and taillight section is not only Ford-like, but also Taurus-like. Whoops! Bet Jaguar wasn't after that look."

"We'd like to think the extra money charged for an S-type would insulate buyers from these types of problems, but our test model's misaligned and peeling rear window molding did little to confirm Jaguar's claims of improved build quality in recent years.

When viewed separately, both the LS and S-type display a number of appealing character traits. Either model can serve as a comfortable and confident ride, though the LS' crisper handling, larger rear seat and lower price tag seems like the better deal to our way of thinking. The Lincoln also doesn't have to shrug off any stigmas about being an "underpriced Jaguar.""