Toyota green light for Hybrid Sports Car as Supra successor

[graywolf624]

and the longer those left by the wayside wait, the further behind technology leader Toyota they will end up.

Or maybe, they realize the current solution is crap and sooner or later people will figure it out. Then they will enter the market with something better. Prius sales are starting to fall, they now actually have rebates on the things.

face of overwhelming scientific consensus.

No such concensus exists. Id suggest you do some reading, several thousand scientists have come out against man made gw.

If you ever watched the movie 'Who Killed the Electric Car,' you get an idea of what is the most likely reason why manufactures stop selling these cars and even bougtht their fleet of electric cars back from willing owners, just to destroy them.

It was complete crap.. but ok. The reason it wasnt done is because they cost too much to make for the overal market. The consumers are the ones who killed the electric car.

The huge carbon footprint (to put it in Gore-terms) of building a hybrid is the same as that of buildin a conventional car

Actually every study done shows the footprint of building a hybrid to be greater then a conventional car.

while these figure have been contested and some have said that it is more like in the high 40's, its a lot more than 3mpg better than a standard economy car

Most standard economy cars also dont have tires the size of a bicycle. Try comparing the fuel economy of the same car hybrid versus not. Youll see the difference is around 5 mpg in the real world. No one has ever argued they are the financial choice.

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by goodduck Toyota Yaris 4 cyl, 1.5 L, Manual(5), Regular: 34 city 40 highway Toyota Prius 60 city 51 highway bigger difference than 5mpg. not going to make you a millionaire but will save you SOME money.

65% x 51 = 33.15 - 35.7 mpg after 2008 EPA estimates come out.

my 1988 Saab 9000 turbo had 36 mpg @ 85mph, 39 @ 70... sorry, but you aren't getting it mate.

The EPA screwed up, those estimates ARENT anywhere near accurate

EDIT:

5-Yr. Ownership Cost

$34,908 - prius

$30,177 - yaris

Original MSRP

$22,175 - prius

$12,025 - yaris

with gas today at $3.39/gallon here

the yaris, you can buy an additional 2994 gallons of gas--- nearly 120,000 miles worth of fuel

assuming the 51 mpg estimate was accurate (which it isnt)

you would have to drive the prius an additional 110,000 miles to even equal the fuel savings.. and the Prius battery wont last that long

[graywolf624]

bigger difference than 5mpg. not going to make you a millionaire but will save you SOME money.

The prius doesnt get 60 mpg. Furthermore the Yaris isnt the same car. In fact its dynamically superior to the prius. Faster, handles better, etc. Apples to apples is hybrid civic versus base civic or hybrid camry versus base.

[acknot]

Why are you comparing Prius and Yaris though? Yaris is considerably smaller car than a Prius, as the Prius was designed using a Camry-based bodyshell. Would you compare a Yaris and a Camry too?

In addition the Prius has a high tech/low weight design language that puts it above Yaris in general class and fit and finish. For instance, it betters most cars in its class with a 5-star Euro NCAP rating.

And do all other cars match their EPA rated mileage? Seems to me the EPA revised their ratings because most cars do not.

[graywolf624]

In addition the Prius has a high tech/low weight design language that puts it above Yaris in general class and fit and finish. For instance, it betters most cars in its class with a 5-star Euro NCAP rating.

I hate to tell you, but the prius isnt leaps and bounds above the yaris in fit and finish. Furthmore as I said.. Its a useless car from a dynamic standpoint. It can;t handle. It cant accelerate.. It cant pass. Its horrible.

The very point was. If you compare the hybrid camry to the base camry or the hybrid civic to the basic civic the difference in bhp is minor.

And do all other cars match their EPA rated mileage? Seems to me the EPA revised their ratings because most cars do not.

The problem is, the prius had one of the largest drops in percentage and value.

[acknot]

Given taht the Yaris is very good for a cheap supermini, I agree that Prius isn't a radical step up in fit and finish though it is noticably better.

As for the mileage, wether the Prius lost more or less than other cars is one thing - the point being driven across here is that Toyota was the only manufacturer overrating the milaegae of its products - when in fact pretty much all manufacturers do.

Does not change the fact that Prius consistenly beats the latest diesel-powered cars in its class in fuel consumption; making it the most energy efficient vehicle available right now. And deomstrating that synergy drive is the best technology right now. Obviously, we have just begun to open the envelope on what may be attainable once serious contenders start to appear.

I don't get the dogmatic opinions expressed here. Why would someone NOT want a hybrid? Compare the Lexus RX330 and 400h - the 400h is faster, gets better mileage, handles much of my innercity driving on battery alone (making it incredibly refined and dead silent, as well as taking it's exhaust elsewhere) drives well and matches most other large familycarriers for class and comfort. So it cost slightly more, I think it's worth it.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by acknot I don't get the dogmatic opinions expressed here.

This isn't "Hippies R US" - it is a forum based on performance car enthusiasts first... paying more for a one SUV over another because it uses "less gas" is but of pooftah logic at best.

More importantly though, is what the used car line ups will look like in 10 years. Right now a 1996 econo 4 cylinder is a viable cheap alterantive for people not endowed with depe pockets.

The cars are cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to maintain and cheap to run.

A 100,000 mile old hybrid will be none of those things.. further contributing to the "overall cost' ont he environment.

[acknot]

Well, I guess since this is a thread on the proposed hybrid Supra I guess the discussion is relevant wether you like perfomance cars or not. Still, it's pretty symptomatic that you imply that only hippies could enjoy a car if it happens to have a hybrid component to its drivetrain.

And why does it matter whether a car sold today is a good or bad buy in ten years time? I can think of plenty of wonderful cars that will probably be crap to own in ten years time - what makes you think maintaining hybrid powertrains will not be a booming business in the years to come? From my navy days I know that many failed large capacity nicad packs can be repaired by replacing weak cells and subsequently doing a few heavy charge/deep discharge cycles - does'nt have to be a factory fresh battery pack at $2500 (massive 400h pack) when your 100.000 mile/ 8 year warranty runs out.

I don't think it is a good thing that car enthusiasts view new solutions or even high technology in general as a threat. Surely the point must be to make a good car, whatever your taste might be -while complying with the need to start getting serious about not ruining the environment we live in? (Otherwise we as enthusiasts are screwed.)

[graywolf624]

Why would someone NOT want a hybrid? Compare the Lexus RX330 and 400h - the 400h is faster, gets better mileage, handles much of my innercity driving on battery alone (making it incredibly refined and dead silent, as well as taking it's exhaust elsewhere) drives well and matches most other large familycarriers for class and comfort. So it cost slightly more, I think it's worth it.

If it costs you more to purchase in excess cost then you save on better mileage, what have you gained? If it is worse or equal for the environment during your ownership period what has the environment gain? Doesn't that mean you've essentially created a marketing tool rather then a real gain?

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by acknot Well, I guess since this is a thread on the proposed hybrid Supra I guess the discussion is relevant wether you like perfomance cars or not. Still, it's pretty symptomatic that you imply that only hippies could enjoy a car if it happens to have a hybrid component to its drivetrain. And why does it matter whether a car sold today is a good or bad buy in ten years time? I can think of plenty of wonderful cars that will probably be crap to own in ten years time - what makes you think maintaining hybrid powertrains will not be a booming business in the years to come? From my navy days I know that many failed large capacity nicad packs can be repaired by replacing weak cells and subsequently doing a few heavy charge/deep discharge cycles - does'nt have to be a factory fresh battery pack at $2500 (massive 400h pack) when your 100.000 mile/ 8 year warranty runs out. I don't think it is a good thing that car enthusiasts view new solutions or even high technology in general as a threat. Surely the point must be to make a good car, whatever your taste might be -while complying with the need to start getting serious about not ruining the environment we live in? (Otherwise we as enthusiasts are screwed.)

review that GW thread i linked to, because we in fact ARENT screwed

I had a fair amount more written, but was lost due to some internets bafoonery on my part.

We are screwed the second you take away my choice to drive what i want, and how i want.

[acknot]

Well then you have been screwed a long time ago, surely you are required to follow speed limits and pass emissions tests like everyone else. You are at lest required to breathe the same air as anyone else.

[graywolf624]

Acknot, Clean air is different from CO2. Its a completely different set of criteria. In fact, the amount of contribution to pollution in the air from a car is often completely unrelated to its mpg. The design of the emission system effects nitrogen and sulfur much more then the fuel usage. In fact, some of these global warming solutions worsen our air (diesels come to mind). You'll find that many conservationalist minded individuals are more concerned about pollution then co2.

[dutchmasterflex]

Just saw in the my local news paper that GM revealed their 150MPG hybrid concept.. only thing is, they do not have the batteries, yet.