motor

schnell318 · 09-28-2004, 01:16 PM

Yes, and the sound of a NA engine is unbeatable IMO.

sergei_dekker85 · 10-01-2004, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by ZfrkS62

Originally Posted by sergei_dekker85

Originally Posted by ZfrkS62

here's the other factor sergei, variable valve timing.

BMW's VANOS system has the powerband of their engines widened considerably since they can open the valves sooner/later. Mercedes doesn't have anything like it.

well if u compare valve timing with forced induction forced induction produces more BHP per ton and has alot more torque if u look at the figures

A) saying you have a 480HP supercharged motor is not as impressive as saying you have a 500HP NA motor (550 with the M6)

B) the NA motor is going to be more reliable than the FI motor since any form of forced induction is going to wear down piston rings, intake manifold gaskets, and even engine oil alot faster than the NA.
Not to mention the cost of replacing the supercharger after the bearings and/or compressor fins wear out.

while true the VANOS units don't add the same amount of power as the supercharger, it is a more reliable solution. Not to mention the fact that it eliminates the need for pesky EGR valves by increasing the scavenging effect. (i'll put up a bigger technical break down of this in the near future)

As for FI methods, a turbo is the better way to go. It has a better power/dollar ratio than a supercharger does since it doesn't have to rob power to make power through the belt drive

well turbo is a no go for me...i really dislike the Lag...Supercharger is more responsive....

sergei_dekker85 · 10-01-2004, 11:01 PM

maybe its down to personal prefrence.....I prefer the sound of the 5 1/2 supercharged V8 to the TVR speed 12's NA V12

ZfrkS62 · 10-02-2004, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by sergei_dekker85

Originally Posted by ZfrkS62

Originally Posted by sergei_dekker85

Originally Posted by ZfrkS62

here's the other factor sergei, variable valve timing.

BMW's VANOS system has the powerband of their engines widened considerably since they can open the valves sooner/later. Mercedes doesn't have anything like it.

well if u compare valve timing with forced induction forced induction produces more BHP per ton and has alot more torque if u look at the figures

A) saying you have a 480HP supercharged motor is not as impressive as saying you have a 500HP NA motor (550 with the M6)

B) the NA motor is going to be more reliable than the FI motor since any form of forced induction is going to wear down piston rings, intake manifold gaskets, and even engine oil alot faster than the NA.
Not to mention the cost of replacing the supercharger after the bearings and/or compressor fins wear out.

while true the VANOS units don't add the same amount of power as the supercharger, it is a more reliable solution. Not to mention the fact that it eliminates the need for pesky EGR valves by increasing the scavenging effect. (i'll put up a bigger technical break down of this in the near future)

As for FI methods, a turbo is the better way to go. It has a better power/dollar ratio than a supercharger does since it doesn't have to rob power to make power through the belt drive

well turbo is a no go for me...i really dislike the Lag...Supercharger is more responsive....

With turbo lag there are ways around it. you can adjust the wastegate so that there is enough pressure to spool the compressor off idle, or if you have a twin setup, use a smaller turbo on the front to get the boost levels up in the low range and use it to spool the larger turbo for the rest. (this is how the twin turbo supras did it)

for smaller engines like 4-cylinders, turbos are the best way to go, IMO. Superchargers should be left to the high displacement 6-cylinders and V8s.

Sir_GT · 10-02-2004, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by ZfrkS62

With turbo lag there are ways around it. you can adjust the wastegate so that there is enough pressure to spool the compressor off idle, or if you have a twin setup, use a smaller turbo on the front to get the boost levels up in the low range and use it to spool the larger turbo for the rest. (this is how the twin turbo supras did it)

for smaller engines like 4-cylinders, turbos are the best way to go, IMO. Superchargers should be left to the high displacement 6-cylinders and V8s.

The twin turbo (small and big) is also the same one BMW uses for its diesels, and is rumoured to finally be using it on the top of the line 3-series model. (the one a step below the 400bhp M3)

Thing is, even Audi (who are excellent when it comes to turbos) and Mercedes (with superchargers) are unable to properly use the setup. The turbo lag is still there.

Besides, turbos and superchargers wear out the engine very quickly, forcing you to spend much more on maintenance and replacement parts, thus nulling the point of an RS6 being cheaper than the M5, as somebody else stated.

Point of the matter is, you can't help but congratulate what BMW has done with the M5's V10. 5 litres and 507 bhp and 500NM of torque? That's really something, no matter what kind of engine you prefer.

Also, one should take note that there is a very high chance that no other manufacturer will be able to replicate the engineering genius that BMW pulled off on the M5 engine. Now if I were in the market for a car within that price tag, and with that kind of power, that acomplishment alone would convince me to take the M5 over the E55 and the RS6.

mindgam3 · 10-02-2004, 04:06 PM

No matter how small the lag, there will always be lag from turbochargers, and so NA are more responsive, you cant predict when the throttles gonna open

ZfrkS62 · 10-02-2004, 05:05 PM

The twin turbo (small and big) is also the same one BMW uses for its diesels, and is rumoured to finally be using it on the top of the line 3-series model. (the one a step below the 400bhp M3)

diesels don't do well in the US unless it's in a truck, so we don't have any diesel BMW's.

and yes, the 330 WILL be turbocharged

not sure if the 530 will recieve the turbo as well. but the E90M3 will be bumped up to a V8.

sergei_dekker85 · 10-03-2004, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by mindgam3

No matter how small the lag, there will always be lag from turbochargers, and so NA are more responsive, you cant predict when the throttles gonna open

yup...turbo lag is very obvious esp in turbodiesels....cos i drive a M.A.N truck(if u ever heard of it) back in the army...heck those things are DAMN powerful...

DUNKiNUTS · 10-03-2004, 11:11 AM

just wait for the next SVT Cobra that will show tail light to them at half the cost.

Bavarias_Finest · 10-03-2004, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by DUNKiNUTS

just wait for the next SVT Cobra that will show tail light to them at half the cost.

The SVT Cobra is a two door sports car, the M5 and E55 are 4 door sedans ... why are we comparing them ... :roll:

The E55 and M5 are faster than the Corvette z06, they are certainly faster than the Cobra SVT, because I know for a fact Ford is not exceeding 400bhp with that model.

mindgam3 · 10-03-2004, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bavarias_Finest

Originally Posted by DUNKiNUTS

just wait for the next SVT Cobra that will show tail light to them at half the cost.

The SVT Cobra is a two door sports car, the M5 and E55 are 4 door sedans ... why are we comparing them ... :roll:

The E55 and M5 are faster than the Corvette z06, they are certainly faster than the Cobra SVT, because I know for a fact Ford is not exceeding 400bhp with that model.

uh oh, you mentioned faste than and corvette in the same sentance, you'll soon be feeling RC45's wrath

schnell318 · 10-03-2004, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by ZfrkS62

The twin turbo (small and big) is also the same one BMW uses for its diesels, and is rumoured to finally be using it on the top of the line 3-series model. (the one a step below the 400bhp M3)

diesels don't do well in the US unless it's in a truck, so we don't have any diesel BMW's.

and yes, the 330 WILL be turbocharged

not sure if the 530 will recieve the turbo as well. but the E90M3 will be bumped up to a V8.

I really don´t think the next 330 will be turbocharged, it´ll just recieve the new Valvetronic I6 which will give it 258 bhp and so will the facelifted 5 series I suppose. I know the gap between 258 bhp I6 and 400 bhp V8 may be too big but I really don´t see BMW turbocharging their petrol engines.

There were rumours that the current 5 was going to get a twin turbo I6 (close to 400 bhp) to close the gap between the 545i and the M5 and nothing came out. The only thing I see likely to happen is BMW increasing the capacity of the 545´s engine sometime in the future (maybe with the facelifted E65 :roll: ).

ZfrkS62 · 10-03-2004, 01:37 PM

It's already been confirmed by our Field Service Engineer who just left for Germany to get trained on the E90, E60M5 and 1 series. The Turobo is coming back and it will be pushing 300HP

and the 4.4L N62 isn't going to be getting an increase in capacity. Not anytime soon anyway. It's possible that at the end of the E65/66 run it may get a displacement change, but i can't see a 750iL with only a V8. I think that would create a little too much confusion since the last 750 was the 5L V12 in the E38.

Sir_GT · 10-03-2004, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by DUNKiNUTS

just wait for the next SVT Cobra that will show tail light to them at half the cost.

you ARE aware that both the E55 and the M5 is faster in a straight line than the new (997) Porsche 911 Carrera S, right? and are also just a shade under a Ferrari 360?

you are ALSO aware that the M5 will handle far far far better than any Ford and Chevy simply because BMW hones their cars on the nordeschlife, and NOT on the freeway, like the American companies, right?

Of course, that's with seating for 5, in leather, with full climate control, sat-nav, electronic seats, boot space, and an optional DVD-player. (for the BMW)

ZfrkS62 · 10-03-2004, 02:46 PM

/\/\/\

it's funny cuz it's true