Max Mosley threatens to ban B.A.R.

[5vz-fe]

I just love it when whenever there's a controversy about rules, ppl always drag Ferrari into this, when Williams or Mclaren do it, no one brings it up. Very interesting.

btw, back in 2002, there's no rules against letting ur teamate win.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by 5vz-fe I just love it when whenever there's a controversy about rules, ppl always drag Ferrari into this, when Williams or Mclaren do it, no one brings it up. Very interesting. btw, back in 2002, there's no rules against letting ur teamate win.

lol, but it brought the sport into disripute and they made a rule DIRECTLY because of that incident.

Ferrari in in or not, FIA are taking this way to far.

The only reason it makes sense is if you consider the fact BAR are part of the GPWC group that are considering breaking away from F1.... The FIA are trying to flex their muscles but are actually doing way more harm to the sport than BAR themselves :roll:

The fact is, BAR did not break any rules yet the FIA are thinking of throwing them out? Fucking ridiculous

[coombsie66]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=32771 FIA claiming BAR are throwing the sport into disrepute? :roll: This is now fucking ridiculous - basically FIA are thinking of throwing BAR out of the Championship completely due to comments by BAR representatives to the press... Aren't BAR allowed to even have an opinion? Fucking out rage What about when MS and Barrochello switched places on purpose in 2002 bringing the sport into disripute - didn't see much happening then :roll:

If they continue to adopt an outlook like that mentioned in the article they're gunna end up with a one make championship, all red.

[5vz-fe]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by 5vz-fe I just love it when whenever there's a controversy about rules, ppl always drag Ferrari into this, when Williams or Mclaren do it, no one brings it up. Very interesting. btw, back in 2002, there's no rules against letting ur teamate win. lol, but it brought the sport into disripute and they made a rule DIRECTLY because of that incident. Ferrari in in or not, FIA are taking this way to far. The only reason it makes sense is if you consider the fact BAR are part of the GPWC group that are considering breaking away from F1.... The FIA are trying to flex their muscles but are actually doing way more harm to the sport than BAR themselves :roll: The fact is, BAR did not break any rules yet the FIA are thinking of throwing them out? Fucking ridiculous

That I agree with you 100%, they are definitely taking it wayyyy to far, ppl got the right to moan. FIA, after all, hand down a very very severe penalty to BAR. Kicking them out of the championship will only do harm to F1.

[|Nuno|]

Yeah, I wonder then why when asked, B.A.R. said there wasn't any fuel left in the tank...

They used fuel as ballast, which is against the rules. Period.

Plus, B.A.R. is known for sometimes having a different interpretation of the rules. Just remember that many new ideas developed by them were considered illegal.



But yeah, I agree with you guys that as usual, the F.I.A. doesn't know how to handle the situation. Quite sad I'd say.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by |Nuno| Yeah, I wonder then why when asked, B.A.R. said there wasn't any fuel left in the tank... They used fuel as ballast, which is against the rules. Period. Plus, B.A.R. is known for sometimes having a different imterpretation of the rules. Just remember that many new ideas developed by them were considered illegal.

Part one - fooling the marshalls i agree was wrong and they should have been punshed for that - taking their current points away for example?

Whether it is ballast or not is highly debatable - oil and engine fluids don't count as ballast as they are essential to the running of the car - so was this spare fuel.....

Either way, the rules don't distinguish so how can they be punished for that? BAR run the torque transfer shaft before and the FIA said it was illegal so they took it off without punishment, why can't they do the same with this? Why? Probly because the GPWC wasn't around when they implemented the otrque transfer shaft

How can you punish someone if they can't be proven guilty?

[|Nuno|]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by |Nuno| Yeah, I wonder then why when asked, B.A.R. said there wasn't any fuel left in the tank... They used fuel as ballast, which is against the rules. Period. Plus, B.A.R. is known for sometimes having a different imterpretation of the rules. Just remember that many new ideas developed by them were considered illegal. Part one - fooling the marshalls i agree was wrong and they should have been punshed for that - taking their current points away for example? Whether it is ballast or not is highly debatable - oil and engine fluids don't count as ballast as they are essential to the running of the car - so was this spare fuel..... Either way, the rules don't distinguish so how can they be punished for that? BAR run the torque transfer shaft before and the FIA said it was illegal so they took it off, why can't they do the same with this? Why? Probly because the GPWC wasn't around when they implemented the otrque transfer shaft

Yep, that's the problem. I'm 100% convinced that they cheated, but as always the rules are written in a way that almost invites the teams to have a "different interpretation"... The F.I.A. just doesn't know how to governate the sport...

But you can't compare this to the torque transfer system, completely different things... And I doubt this has anything to do with them being part of the GPWC or not; this isn't just bad for B.A.R. ya know...things like these don't do any good for the sport in general.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by |Nuno| Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by |Nuno| Yeah, I wonder then why when asked, B.A.R. said there wasn't any fuel left in the tank... They used fuel as ballast, which is against the rules. Period. Plus, B.A.R. is known for sometimes having a different imterpretation of the rules. Just remember that many new ideas developed by them were considered illegal. Part one - fooling the marshalls i agree was wrong and they should have been punshed for that - taking their current points away for example? Whether it is ballast or not is highly debatable - oil and engine fluids don't count as ballast as they are essential to the running of the car - so was this spare fuel..... Either way, the rules don't distinguish so how can they be punished for that? BAR run the torque transfer shaft before and the FIA said it was illegal so they took it off, why can't they do the same with this? Why? Probly because the GPWC wasn't around when they implemented the otrque transfer shaft Yep, that's the problem. I'm 100% convinced that they cheated, but as always the rules are written in a way that almost invites the teams to have a "different interpretation"... The F.I.A. just doesn't know how to governate the sport... But you can't compare this to the torque transfer system, completely different things... And I doubt this has anything to do with them being part of the GPWC or not; this isn't just bad for B.A.R. ya know...things like these don't do any good for the sport in general.

I don't understand how you can say they cheated if they never broke any specific rule? The only thing they did do was lie to the stewards - which i said they should have had their points taken away from - but they never had any unfair advantage over any of the cars during the entire race.

Either way, it's only going to make GPWC more likely given the FIA's complete lack of governing ability

[|Nuno|]

I don't understand how you can say they cheated if they never broke any specific rule? The only thing they did do was lie to the stewards - which i said they should have had their points taken away from - but they never had any unfair advantage over any of the cars during the entire race.

Many factors combined, one of them being exacly that: the fact that they lied to the stewards. Why would they do it if they didn't have nothing to hide?

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by |Nuno| I don't understand how you can say they cheated if they never broke any specific rule? The only thing they did do was lie to the stewards - which i said they should have had their points taken away from - but they never had any unfair advantage over any of the cars during the entire race. Many factors combined, one of them being exacly that: the fact that they lied to the stewards. Why would they do it if they didn't have nothing to hide?

Please explain these factors

The FIA knew about the system for a few races before Barcelona, why have they just acted upon it now?

Regarding the fuel tank - please tell me which rules they have proven to have broken, excluding lying with the stewards?

[|Nuno|]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by |Nuno| I don't understand how you can say they cheated if they never broke any specific rule? The only thing they did do was lie to the stewards - which i said they should have had their points taken away from - but they never had any unfair advantage over any of the cars during the entire race. Many factors combined, one of them being exacly that: the fact that they lied to the stewards. Why would they do it if they didn't have nothing to hide? Please explain these factors The FIA knew about the system for a few races before Barcelona, why have they just acted upon it now? Regarding the fuel tank - please tell me which rules they have proven to have broken, excluding lying with the stewards?

The factors are explained in many articles in this thread. Lets just say that the sudden gain in performance is one of them, which also answers your second question.

The third question was also explained before in this thread.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by |Nuno| Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by |Nuno| I don't understand how you can say they cheated if they never broke any specific rule? The only thing they did do was lie to the stewards - which i said they should have had their points taken away from - but they never had any unfair advantage over any of the cars during the entire race. Many factors combined, one of them being exacly that: the fact that they lied to the stewards. Why would they do it if they didn't have nothing to hide? Please explain these factors The FIA knew about the system for a few races before Barcelona, why have they just acted upon it now? Regarding the fuel tank - please tell me which rules they have proven to have broken, excluding lying with the stewards? The factors are explained in many articles in this thread. Lets just say that the sudden gain in performance is one of them, which also answers your second question. The third question was also explained before in this thread.

Can you please state them specifically again? Can't seem to find exactly what you mean...

Sudden gain in performance has nothing to with the fuel tank - as said, they've had the fuel system for the past few races....

[|Nuno|]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by |Nuno| Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by |Nuno| I don't understand how you can say they cheated if they never broke any specific rule? The only thing they did do was lie to the stewards - which i said they should have had their points taken away from - but they never had any unfair advantage over any of the cars during the entire race. Many factors combined, one of them being exacly that: the fact that they lied to the stewards. Why would they do it if they didn't have nothing to hide? Please explain these factors The FIA knew about the system for a few races before Barcelona, why have they just acted upon it now? Regarding the fuel tank - please tell me which rules they have proven to have broken, excluding lying with the stewards? The factors are explained in many articles in this thread. Lets just say that the sudden gain in performance is one of them, which also answers your second question. The third question was also explained before in this thread. Can you please state them specifically again? Can't seem to find exactly what you mean... Sudden gain in performance has nothing to with the fuel tank - as said, they've had the fuel system for the past few races....

Look better, there are many articles over here explaining the situation.

And if you think they didn't cheat then good for you, everyone has a different opinion, which is in what this discussion has become; a my opinion vs. yours. So I'm done.

[coombsie66]

^^ Um yes its your oppinion, but that doesnt work in a factual debate!!! BAR proved that they obeyed the rules, they proved that at no point during the race were they under the minimum weight limit, which if they had dropped below would constitute 'cheating'.
So as has been stated 'by the articles' they did posses the ability to cheat, but proved that they didnt infact use the ability in the race. Hence why their charge was dropped and they werent thrown out of the championship.
How can you be 100% sure they cheated?!
Damn man dont make sweeping remarks on personal oppinion when its a fact based argument!

[|Nuno|]

Originally Posted by coombsie66 ^^ Um yes its your oppinion, but that doesnt work in a factual debate!!! BAR proved that they obeyed the rules, they proved that at no point during the race were they under the minimum weight limit, which if they had dropped below would constitute 'cheating'. So as has been stated 'by the articles' they did posses the ability to cheat, but proved that they didnt infact use the ability in the race. Hence why their charge was dropped and they werent thrown out of the championship. How can you be 100% sure they cheated?! Damn man dont make sweeping remarks on personal oppinion when its a fact based argument!

I don't know I why still bother... When I say opinion vs. opinion I mean that I have a different interpretation of the facts than mindgam3. For me, the facts that I'll show next are more than enough to convince me that they cheated - for mindgam3 they're not. It's not like I'm making things up; they did brake the rules. Period. And breaking the rules = cheating.


And here are the facts:

Fact 1: B.A.R. lied to the stewards. This alone is enough for me - again, if they didn't have anything to hide, then why did they lie? And still no one answered this simple question...

Fact 2: Button's car was underweight. See: "The Court said that the only way the car could have met the 600kg requirement was by using fuel as ballast, which is not allowed under Formula One regulations. "

Fact 3: the tank by itself isn't illegal, but hiding its purpose form the F.I.A. is. Plus, if they had any doubts about the rules, then why didn't they aks for a clarification?

BAR proved that they obeyed the rules, they proved that at no point during the race were they under the minimum weight limit, which if they had dropped below would constitute 'cheating'.

"It also stated that BAR’s fuel consumption data could not guarantee that the car complied with the rules at all times during the race, hence the team neglected their duty to satisfy the FIA technical delegate of its legality throughout the event."

Whoops...


And it's not like I'd trust B.A.R. after they lied to the stweards...


Other thing: B.A.R. used fuel as a ballast, they insisted that the engine needed a minimum 6Kgs of fuel to run and this was found in the accumulator tank, many teams need to maintain a minimum fuel in the car in order for the engine to run.The difference is that they add the fuel on top of the minimum 600 Kg weight whereas BAR didn't.

And why all the secrecy if they weren't planning on cheating?

but proved that they didnt infact use the ability in the race.

It's not proven that they didn't use the the ability, as it's not proven that they did. It wasn't possible to prove both things.


Other tought: people say this is a G9 vs. F.I.A. thing, right?

Well, I don't see the other teams supporting B.A.R. As I have never heard from any G9 teams complaining that this case only happened because of the war between FIA and the G9s... In fact, they seem to agree with the F.I.A., so enough with the conspiracy theories.

...when its a fact based argument!

And if you're so worried about facts, then please post them, because I don't see any in your post.



And just for the record, B.A.R. was one of my favourite teams (after Ferrari and Mclaren) before this happened, but they disappointed me.