Go Back   Sports Car Forum - MotorWorld.net > General Discussion > Motorsport News And Discussion



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-26-2004, 10:59 AM   #1
sameerrao
Regular User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 3,850
Default Ferrari is using a special 'light weight' fuel this season.

Ferrari use 'light weight' F1 fuel
Is this what gives the Champions the edge?


According to F1live.com


This may explain how the Scuderia's drivers Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello can run a bit longer than their rivals in the first stint of races.

Ten laps of Shell-produced Ferrari fuel, for example, might be the equivalent of only eight laps of a rival Formula One squad's product, because it weighs less.

A statement said 'Shell V-power F1ULG58' is as 'light as possible whilst maintaining the same performance characteristics.'


I never knew the weight of fuel could be altered that much.

I thought the F1 teams needed to use pump gas as per regulations. Little confused by this development.
sameerrao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 11:52 AM   #2
T-Bird
Regular User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 3,627
Default

maybe shell will start to sell it at the pump
T-Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 12:03 PM   #3
Vansquish
Regular User
 
Vansquish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA/ Bloomington, IN, USA
Posts: 2,624
Default

I find it a little hard to believe, but perhaps it's not impossible. The problem with "light weight" fuel would be the fact that it is unlikely that it could carry the same energy-per-volume or energy-per-mass as other fuels...for instance...ethanol is lighter than methanol and both are lighter than gasoline...but in order to get the same amount of energy during combustion of those alcohols as one would get in a regular gas engine, one has to burn quite a lot more fuel by volume.
__________________
me-- "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. Sometimes I feel like the moon is made of cheese"

my Hindibonics-speaking Indian roommate--"Dawgs, do you have any idea how much bacteria that would take?"
Vansquish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 12:23 PM   #4
No.1
Regular User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 3,224
Default

Maybe it means light as in viscosity...

If not, they are very clever at Shell
__________________
No.1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 02:08 PM   #5
nejcdolinsek
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK, Slovenia, Poland
Posts: 1,124
Default

I highly doubt thats why Ferrari is as fast as they are this season :roll:
__________________
Perfection comes in the form of any Ferrari
nejcdolinsek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 02:12 PM   #6
spicymustard
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Posts: 159
Default

I thought that all the F1 teams used the same fuel and same pumping mechanisms? Thats odd, with all the tech battles in F1 (tyres and all) I never hear about fuel.
spicymustard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 02:42 PM   #7
gucom
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rotterdam, Holland, EU
Posts: 3,767
Default

no fuel has to meet a couple of regulations in hte area of octan number etc., it must remain close to the stuff u can buy at the pump, but several teams have (had) gas delivered by their sponsors. The pumps themselves are all the same, made by a french firm. This is to prevent the teams from trying to make a pump that pum,ps faster thna other pumps, giving more chance of accidents.

Basically the only way i see for gas to deliver the same energy at lower weight is for a higher octane number, which is prohibited. And iven if it was true, i dont think the speed difference would be that big
__________________
gucom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 03:39 PM   #8
No.1
Regular User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 3,224
Default

Originally Posted by gucom
it must remain close to the stuff u can buy at the pump,
Yeah... like on 5th Gear.

The guy could run his Ferrari F1 car on ordinary petrol .. i think Optimax by Shell is a good choice
__________________
No.1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 03:50 PM   #9
levensnevel
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hellevoetsluis, the Netherlands
Posts: 781
Default

Just check out
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?...n/welcome.html
subscribe to their regular newsletter and you might learn a few facts
__________________

Niets of niemand zegt dat het echt moet
En toch, of juist daarom,wil je het beleven....

Weblog
levensnevel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 05:40 PM   #10
Drogear
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Seattle, Washington USA
Posts: 116
Default

I dont think that I lighter weight fuel would make that much of a difference! Just because the fuel is lighter does not mean that it burns slower, it might even burn faster since it is less dense. Since all fuel tanks are the same size, even if the fuel was lighter I dont think that Ferrari would be able to exploit it under the FIA regulations.
Drogear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 06:15 PM   #11
sameerrao
Regular User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 3,850
Default

I dont think that I lighter weight fuel would make that much of a difference! Just because the fuel is lighter does not mean that it burns slower, it might even burn faster since it is less dense. Since all fuel tanks are the same size, even if the fuel was lighter I dont think that Ferrari would be able to exploit it under the FIA regulations.
Well the F1-live article states that the Ferrari can qualify with 2 laps worth of more fuel without any weight penalty. Therefore the question of quicker burning does not arise as they are refering to race laps here.

This is an obvious advantage as the Ferrari can pit 2 laps later, take less fuel and so on and so forth...

I checked the FIA Technical regulations - they devote an entire chapter to fuel... Quoting from the FIA tech regs:

The detailed requirements of this Article are intended to ensure the use of fuels that are composed of compounds normally found in commercial fuels and to prohibit the use of specific power-boosting chemical compounds.

The only fuel permitted is petrol having the following characteristics:
Property Units Min Max Test Method
RON 95.0 102.0 ASTM D 2699-86
Density at 15°C kg/m³ 720.0 775.0 ASTM D 4052

They mention specific receipe for the fuel and specific densities here - so how can one fule be lighter than the other.

Note that the fuel samples are analyzed from each team during the race. So the fuel must have passed scrutiny.
sameerrao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 11:05 PM   #12
Caps8419
Regular User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 292
Default

i hily dout the less viscosity of the fuel is really giving shumi the edge this season.... hes just good at what he does.... i think every team has to submit a sample of any fuel they plan on using throughout the race.... they may have at least a dozzen variations of fuel depending on the conditions and tempurature of the track.....
__________________

Officially, Catholicism is Italy's official religion; but any true Italian will tell you Ferrari first, soccer second.....
Originally Posted by SFDMALEX
Montoya should race bumper karts and not F1 race cars!
Caps8419 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 03:34 AM   #13
altezza
Regular User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 980
Default

An article from the Ferrari press site:
Fuel and oil: the hidden advantage
Maranello, 26th May - The chassis, the engine, the tyres are all well known components of the F1 package, but there are other less obvious elements that play a vital role and they are the fuel and lubricants, which in the case of Scuderia Ferrari, are provided by its partner, Shell.

Every race track makes different demands on these items, but here in Monaco, lubricants play a more important part than at some other circuits, particularly for the transmission. 'In the case of both engine and gearbox, there is always a trade off between the efficiency of the oil and it’s protection performance,' says Shell Formula 1 technical manager, Mike Copson. 'We are always looking at how to reduce friction (between moving parts) because friction is the enemy of power. The shift pattern on an F1 gearbox is very harsh as it takes around 20 milliseconds to change gear, so the driver gets through the gears incredibly quickly and over 2000 times at Monaco. The gear oil therefore gets a very hard time, not only through being churned around by the gears but also because it is very hard to lubricate two surfaces rubbing against one another which is more demanding than the type of lubrication required in an engine. Added to that, the cars are travelling relatively slowly at Monaco so there is less cooling and that creates the worst possible environment for an oil, aggravated by the many changes of direction through all the corners. So, for this race more than others, wear protection becomes a major priority when producing the oil. If added to that the ambient temperature is high it makes life even more difficult.'

Shell is not just implicated in producing fuel and lubricants. 'We put a major effort into developing hydraulic fluids which activate the throttles on the engine and the gear shifts,' continues Copson. 'The fluid has to provide a 'solid rod' between the control and what is actuated. When a driver puts his foot on the throttle or changes gear, it requires an instantaneous response. So compressibility is very important as is cleanliness. It is a very stern test of our handling of the fluid to retain that cleanliness. Even grease is specially made for the car, designed to reduce friction to a minimum in parts like the constant velocity joints on the drive shafts to reduce rolling resistance on the road.'

Although the concept that a good fuel can be a source of power from an engine is easy to understand the whole fuel scenario is far more complicated, affecting not only power, but torque, driveability (of key importance at Monaco,) fuel economy and therefore even race strategy. The chemistry of producing the fuel is very complex, because these elements often work against one another, as in simple terms, a powerful fuel is not always an economical one. 'We can improve driveability out of corners by using fuel components that are more volatile and make it burn quicker. In terms of a fuel’s density, this is controlled by the FIA. At the 'light' end of the density scale if you have two cars of the same weight, but you are running a lighter fuel, then that car can have more fuel, allowing it to go further on the race track. It is about maximising the pit stop window, which then helps the Ferrari strategists. As far as fuel economy is concerned, even if you have power and driveability, these advantages are lost if economy is bad. You also have to consider that these fuels have to work at much higher temperatures than in a road car. The fuel is also moved about a lot, from the original supply in drums, to the refuelling rigs in the pit lane and finally to the car. It makes our life very difficult to ensure it stays in conformity with the FIA sample. This is a team effort as the condition of the fuel depends on the way Ferrari handles and stores it.'

At every race, the fuels and lubricants programme is run from the Shell Trackside Laboratory which is incorporated into one of the Ferrari trucks. 'On the fuel side we take about 40 samples in the course of a weekend,' reveals Copson. 'The main reason is to check it always conforms to the sample previously approved by the FIA and that it is always performing to its maximum. A fuel is made up of between 200 and 250 different chemical and each one has a maximum and a minimum reading. The sample is heated in a gas chromatography machine and that creates a line graph. The FIA has an identical machine so it is simply a case of overlaying the two graphs to ensure they match. The fuel could change if it is contaminated or it could be affected by weather. The better the analysis, the closer you can get to the FIA limits, which gives you a better fuel, in the same way that the most accurate method of weighing the car ensures you can run closer to the minimum weight limit.'

The oil monitoring side is slightly different. Samples are taken from the cars throughout the weekend, even though there are very few FIA restrictions on lubricants. While the fuel is broadly similar to pump fuel you buy for your road car, the lubricants are much more bespoke. 'We look at the level of metal found in the oil when taken from the gearbox or engine for example,' says Copson. 'That is compared to the levels found at other points in the weekend and even to those from past years at a certain track and Shell uses this data to give Ferrari a picture of the condition of its engine, in much the same way as a doctor can get information from a blood test.' Scuderia Ferrari’s engines reliability is excellent with only two race engine failures in the past four years, which is exceptional in this sport. Part of that reliability is down to the excellent partnership with Shell.
altezza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 03:58 AM   #14
ngudan
Regular User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 129
Default

Interesting. What will they come up with next... fuel-less cars. hahah.. oh yeah, they've already made the electric car.

But then again, it doesn't explain why the Ferrari of Barachello can only match the pace of his contenders(not shuey) in the first stint.
__________________

D.K.D.N
ngudan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 08:32 AM   #15
kteo2003
Regular User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 225
Default

i think that it is possible...but i don't think that it matters only the weigth of the fuel..there are also other factors such as the carrateristics of the engine the mix fuel/air etc etc. tha can make this happen...but still i think that by now the other teams will go for this...barichello till now had o more fuel o he was not lucky or he was peanalised by his team....don't compare schumi with barichello.
kteo2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump