motor

nthfinity · 08-16-2006, 07:19 PM

oh, i've watched it many times @ every fanboy

and so Dan Kenedy is just an idiot who can't drive? look at his technique.

I base my opinions on DIRECT contact with those who have driven the so called infallable F1, and those who have owned the F1.

the Bugatti EB110 dont suffer this issue, the F40 doesn't suffer this issue, the Vector W8 doesn't, the Jag XJ220 doesnt; so saying "well, its old tech by modern standards" is just stupid.

And BTW, I knew so many would disagree with this standpoint.... what suprises me is thenumber of people that seem to have switched sides.

oh, and don't believe everything you read on the Intardweb oh... and the LM is a different car, i stil say the F1 is a poor handling unbalanced car even with the LM aerokit, unless the suspension is reworked... perhaps then it behaves differently... but most F1's aren't LM's, or GTR's etc.

nickthaskater · 08-16-2006, 07:36 PM

lol here comes the 'intardweb' comments...

And nth, no one has said the F1 is infallable.

StanAE86 · 08-16-2006, 07:52 PM

Having watched the video earlier today, I have to say that using the word "technique" is a stretch of the word...at least to me, as it implies some skill. I saw very little, if ANY skill in how Dan was driving in the video.

While I know there are those that say the F1 is flawed in the ways you have pointed out, I think it's a stretch to say it's a poor handling car. I think it's a likely a difficult car to drive, but like someone said earlier, so is the CGT. But it is rewarding when driven correctly.

But you know...I've never driven it, so this is all basically based on what I've read and seen. Although there weren't any problems during this ride:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D...LarenRide.html

But yeah yeah yeah...nth is gonna' say that's the GTR.

sentra_dude · 08-16-2006, 08:06 PM

Ok Nth, you say you have talked to owner(s) of the F1, etc...well I took it upon myself to pose this as a question to the resident F1 owner over on Pistonheads.com, probably one of the most knowledgable people about the F1 on the internet (and one who obviously has extensive experience with the car) and a very nice guy, you should ask him a question about the F1, he'll most likely answer if you aren't a dick about it. Here's what he said:

Originally Posted by flemke

Originally Posted by celicagt

flemke,

On another forum this video has been posted as "proof" that McLaren F1's handle badly. Quoting: "you can clearly see the car just lets loose without warning; as he tries time and time again to hold a slide...".

What would be your response to that? Does the stock suspension qualify the car as having bad handling, or just flawed handling? Also, I'm wondering how easy it would be to 'drift' any 600+hp & low weight MR car on a damp runway... Thanks in advance!

I'm not the best guy to be addressing this, but I know two guys who can maintain a drift in the F1 pretty much indefinitely. (They are not owners.)
With no disrespect to the person who's driving in the video, I'm not sure that he should be one's reference point for assessing how the car handles.
I wouldn't say that the car handles badly, and, indeed, I have seen masterly drivers make it do tricks.

I think that you have it right with the word "flawed", in the following sense.
The car was intended to provide a certain combination of high speed, ride quality and comfort, grip, and handling characteristics - a particular driving and riding experience.
That resulting combination was one with which I was uncomfortable. It would not have been what I chose, and I suspect that the majority of owners who drive the cars (maybe that's two dozen-ish) would prefer something a bit different as well.
Because all one reads about is how this is the perfect car, however, perhaps these folks assume that this is the way it ought to be.

It is true that the back end can break loose without warning, but that is not in power oversteer. Rather, it is in the transition from at-or-above-the-limit understeer to near-the-limit oversteer.
In power oversteer it is fairly benign, considering that it is mid-engined with that big P-to-W ratio.

I think flemke's response means more than anyone else's since not only has he actually DRIVEN the car (unlike I'd imagine everyone in this topic), but he also OWNS one. Yes, it has flawed handling...if you've read any of what he's said about the car he doesn't claim it to be perfect...but has that kept him from saying its one of the best cars he's driven on many occasions, nope!

TNT · 08-16-2006, 08:21 PM

Nth, you aren't taking any consideration on the drivers part. you don't know anything about the driver, you ASSume that it is the car. If you look the runway is damp, he did just get it, he is out having fun, the g/f is saying don't spin (thus he is trying), listen to the throttle, etc. you can't win this battle.

nthfinity · 08-16-2006, 08:42 PM

Great post Sentra!

and i hope the fan boys read that post as well.

Originally Posted by TNT

Nth, you aren't taking any consideration on the drivers part. you don't know anything about the driver, you ASSume that it is the car. If you look the runway is damp, he did just get it, he is out having fun, the g/f is saying don't spin (thus he is trying), listen to the throttle, etc. you can't win this battle.

Wrong, watch the video again, this time with your eyes open

~Also, i base my opnions on two separate owners; I've found out both have histories in racing; one a gentleman racer, the other a long history in racing.

what they have said is exactly what i have posted, and what pistonheads' flemke had mentioned above in sentra's post; so it IS the car.

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching

OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

Originally Posted by r2r

Handles badly! what?? Based on this video!!

Are we being serious here?

All this video is showing is the guy having fun with the car nothing more nothing less!

I bet if we went back to the year 1994 when this car was released, we wouldn't be having this conversation on how supposedly bad it handles, because we might have forgot how far we have gotten in car performance technology. Being so critical about how the handling of a car like this is not what exoticars are about!

To me its about 3 things; innovation, looks, and power.

And this car succeeds in all three!

yeah, of course I'm as serious as what i mentioned to you before too.

If we went back to 1994, and i knew the same folks i know now, my opinion is the same.

you compare the handling of the competing supercars of that era, the F40/F50, the Vector W8, the Jaguar XJ220, the Bugatti EB110.... all didn't behave AT ALL like this. keep in mind, the F40 is a 1988 tech, the Vector is 1992 tech, the Bugatti is those same years, and the Jag had "wooden" brakes... but never once was the handling balance an issue...

how is it that McLaren couldn't make a car that light handle as well, or better then the others? its beyond my comprehension.

and you above all others should know that style is in the eye of the beholder. I dont find the F1 particularly attractive, or ugly; but rather neutral.... and i have tremendous respect for its powerplant, and liniar accelelration...

but straight line speed is not what makes a supercar a supercar... its the balance, which the F1 just doesn't have right.

TNT · 08-16-2006, 09:09 PM

to each his own i guess

Svensson · 08-16-2006, 09:33 PM

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching

OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

What kind of lame comment is that? :roll: You're the one that praised his excellent downshifting skills and now you're trying to be funny because you can't answer my question. What's so great about slamming the gearstick in a lower gear as he is clearly doing? Like I said, he's not even matching revs before letting out the clutch, hence the locking of the rear wheels. And you don't need to see his feet, you should be able to hear a blip of the engine when that happens, which you can't. So I ask again: What's so great about his downshifting?

This is what I call great downshifting skills:
:arrow: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/sebr...SatSebring.wmv
:arrow:

Double Clutch Downshifts - YouTube

rave426 · 08-16-2006, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Svensson

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching

OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

What kind of lame comment is that? :roll: You're the one that praised his excellent downshifting skills and now you're trying to be funny because you can't answer my question. What's so great about slamming the gearstick in a lower gear as he is clearly doing? Like I said, he's not even matching revs before letting out the clutch, hence the locking of the rear wheels. And you don't need to see his feet, you should be able to hear a blip of the engine when that happens, which you can't. So I ask again: What's so great about his downshifting?

This is what I call great downshifting skills:
:arrow: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/sebr...SatSebring.wmv
:arrow:

Double Clutch Downshifts - YouTube

Ok the second video isnt all that impressive. Honestly me and and friend of mine can beat that.

But the first video........My GOD..... That is without a doubt the most impressive downshifting skills I have ever seen. I'm not going to even act like I am at that level right now. Hopefully I'll get there when I get a new car next year and get out of my "dad picked it out because i'm in school" chevy impala.

If anybody actually attempts to master downshifting when givent he chance (like me) then you will know how hard it is to get that perfect rev match every time.

But this guy is flawless.........Very impressive shifting techniques.....Though it looks like he does need to work on reducing his mid corner lift off.

Anyway thats a great vid. Thanks

nthfinity · 08-16-2006, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Svensson

I don't see any double declutching, not even heel-and-toe rev-matching

OMG, welcome www.thefastandferious.net :roll: can you see his feet? thats right

What kind of lame comment is that? :roll: You're the one that praised his excellent downshifting skills and now you're trying to be funny because you can't answer my question. What's so great about slamming the gearstick in a lower gear as he is clearly doing? Like I said, he's not even matching revs before letting out the clutch, hence the locking of the rear wheels. And you don't need to see his feet, you should be able to hear a blip of the engine when that happens, which you can't. So I ask again: What's so great about his downshifting?

This is what I call great downshifting skills:
:arrow: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/sebr...SatSebring.wmv
:arrow:

Double Clutch Downshifts - YouTube

anybody who mentions dubble clutching 95% has no idea what it is; what its benefits are, and where its uses are.

dubble clutching IS NOT used in driving a car, driving a car hard, driving a race car; unless you are so-called dubble clutching based on the FAST and the Ferious movies.

rev matching? i do see some rev matching; albiet, not at high rpm

5vz-fe · 08-16-2006, 10:47 PM

Martin Brundle review of Macca F1
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...81072916073474

A great turn in to the corner and the nose of the car goes in well, but mid corner, the steering gets a bit heavy and dead, that was a disappointment. On the exit the traction was superb and the general balace of the car, understeer and oversteer was just what I wanted, but the brakes was a major disappointment...just couldn't hold a candle to the ones on the Enzo.

The video has all the cars you compare with the Macca with, and the Macca F1 win out.

Mika also choose Macca, but of course, I am sure u will say he's biased.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...69809245339526

rave426 · 08-16-2006, 10:49 PM

^^ Double clutching is what big-rigs use to upshift isnt it.

I heard it once but really am not sure since i have never needed to use it.

5vz-fe · 08-16-2006, 10:51 PM

Double clutching is the days where trans has no syncros..

nthfinity · 08-16-2006, 11:02 PM

and notice, that car IS NOT a 'standard' F1... and, he is a former F1 pilot, where lightning reflexes have long been part of his game...

also, the Bugatti seems to handle equally well, the F40 does, the XJ220 does as well based on his own verbal acount.... where he praises the other cars handling

basically saying 'the bugatti will oversteer over a crest' and the 'xj220 will get a heavy steering unexpectedly'

but def. notice this car is NOT the same F1 that has no real benefit aero package like this....

was this car a LM, or aerokited? it does look lower then a standard F1 too...

Svensson · 08-16-2006, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by nthfinity

anybody who mentions dubble clutching 95% has no idea what it is; what its benefits are, and where its uses are.

dubble clutching IS NOT used in driving a car, driving a car hard, driving a race car; unless you are so-called dubble clutching based on the FAST and the Ferious movies.

rev matching? i do see some rev matching; albiet, not at high rpm

I am perfectly aware of what double de-clutching is and what it is used for, otherwise I would not mention the term. Whether or not it is really useful in daily driving is an entirely different discussion, but fact is that it's the most pure and complex way of downshifting and it's the nicest way to treat a gearbox. My point is that it shows skill, that's why I mentioned it in the first place.

I'm not saying the guy can't drive, I just think his downshifting is nothing to write home about. It's nothing more then average plus he's locking up the rear wheels (no rev-matching).

But back to the main topic: You mentioned some interesting points, but I'm still far from convinced the F1 is a bad handling car. Especially judging from a video of a guy who's just having some fun and not seriously attempting to balance the car in any way.