motor

RC45 · 12-19-2006, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by tforth

RC45,

You keep referencing NB lap times, which I and most credible OEs agree is pretty much the best measure or performance available. So, I did a quick check for a list of NB times and this is what I found @http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=476. I know sport auto should have a more comprehensive list somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

I excluded the top 2, as they are not 'really' road cars. That being said, it looks like (see below) 'your' Z06 comes in 9th (excludes 2nd CGT time). Keep in mind, that this list does not include many cars that have a fair chance of being faster than the Z06, like the 599 GTB for example. Also note the 996 GT3 RS with the same time and approx 120 less hp. This should suggest something to you about the Z06's somewhat non-ideal handling I guess, eh?

Don't get me wrong, the Z06 packs the biggest punch for its price, but it doesn't cost very much, does it? None, of the non-American reviews that I have seen/read extol it's handling. They don't say it's brutal like prior generations; just not as good as could be, especially when it's bumpy. This is shown by the better times of the 997 GT3 and turbo, which have a noticeably worse power/weight ratio. They also have a non-ideal weight distribution (i.e. rear engine).

The list:

7:28 - 166.652 km/h - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, Walther Roehrl, (Autobild 07/04)
7:32* - 164.071 km/h – Pagani Zonda F, 650 PS/ 1230 kg, (*mfr.) www.autodrome-cannes.com/index-eng.asp
7:34 - 163.586 km/h - Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1418 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto), oct,17-18 05
7:36 - 162.631 km/h - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (02)
7.39* - 161.575 km/h - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1395 kg, *mfr. (quote sport auto 05/06)
7:40 - 161.217 km/h – Bugatti 16/4 Veyron, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)
7:40 - 161.217 km/h - Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 07/04)
7:40 - 161.217 km/h - Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/ ??? kg, Michelin Cup Sport tyres (Motortrend)
7:42* - 160.519 km/h – Ford GT, 550 PS/ 1521 kg (*as indicated by Octane magazine, 11/05)
7:42.9 - 160.207 km/h - Corvette Z06, 500 PS/1319 kg, Jan Magnusen, (Sporbilen, jun,26 05), http://www.supercars.net/Pics?vpf2=y...ID=1384471&l=d
7:43 - 160.173 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Roehrl (MOTOR magazine)

What exactly is your point?

That other than a few ultra-expensive supercars the C6 Z06 with stock GoodYear RunFlat tyres can lap the same a barely street legal 996 GT3 RS or 997TT on Michelin Sport Cup tyres?

And show me a single article that does NOT say the 427ci 505hp V8 is brutal?

Not as brutal as previous generations?

The previous generation are only 405hp 346ci V8's.

So again- exactly what is your point?

BTW - the Veyron at 1000hp, 4wd, on board supercomputers and $1 million doesn do so well does it?

tforth · 12-19-2006, 01:32 AM

My point is that the Z06 fairs better in terms of price/performance in straight line testing, by quite some margin I would add, than it does at a more comprehensive venue (i.e. at the NS). I'll agree that tires are worth a few seconds, but then again you don't have to look much further up the list to find the M3 CSL which has a lb/hp of approx. 10:1 vs. the Z06 at approx. 6:1. Furthermore, the CSL is basically a mainstream sedan based coupe (BMW sells >500 000 3-series/yr).

Regarding the Veyron time, I wouldn't put much credence in it yet, just like the early SLR and CGT times, never mind the distinct absence of any credible Enzo time, now that it's even out of production!

tforth · 12-19-2006, 01:32 AM

My point is that the Z06 fairs better in terms of price/performance in straight line testing, by quite some margin I would add, than it does at a more comprehensive venue (i.e. at the NS). I'll agree that tires are worth a few seconds, but then again you don't have to look much further up the list to find the M3 CSL which has a lb/hp of approx. 10:1 vs. the Z06 at approx. 6:1. Furthermore, the CSL is basically a mainstream sedan based coupe (BMW sells >500 000 3-series/yr).

Regarding the Veyron time, I wouldn't put much credence in it yet, just like the early SLR and CGT times, never mind the distinct absence of any credible Enzo time, now that it's even out of production!

tforth · 12-19-2006, 01:42 AM

Oh, and btw, the original link posted on this thread was a stan of 1 of the 5 that I had posted on a similar Veyron thread on Dec. 10.

dash · 12-19-2006, 08:16 AM

RC45: first thanks for pointing out my mistake (wright <--- that one - always apreciated and I mean it) but isn't this shame when you criple your native language?

Now back on track. You can ban me? Oh noes!!! Momy. I guess taht should stop me from writting here what I just want to do. Unfortunately, I'm not that easy.

I have never seen more complex-ridden, self repeating (you are troll [I thought only 11 year old kids use that silly expression], you are ignorant and so on - is this all you can aford?).
You are so in love with american cars that you can't see the ovious thing - they were always a piece of crap to drive (I don't say a Mustang Boss or a Corvette are legendary cars - legendary yes, great to drive - hell no). Why the rest of the world knows about it and only Americans claim that these are good cars? Is cheaply made, poor handling and not reliable car the essence of your expectations?
Wanna compete with your beloved Vette against McLaren F1 (yes the one none of you seen and also the one you think has crappy breaks and turns even worse than american cars).
You all guys just don't let me give up the american argument. All the things you say and the way you say it only proves that there is no more ignorant nation that you are (kinda unfair for the rest Americans, but guys like you are responsible for that).
RC45: please, have mercy - don't quote me here crappy magazine (I had the chance to see few american tv shows about cars - it was a punishment). What do you expect? That they say "oh, again it's a car that's cheap and sloppy but hey, it's american". Please.
I just can't believe you are 38 (I could understand if you were 18), your

And once again - you didn't understand a word from the "idiot" lecture, did you?
It's not about language stuff, it's about using words without knowing their meaning. You gotta be either stupid, offensive or ingnorant. No?

By the way, the thing with Corvette history is priceless, Do you mind if I quote that to my friends?

But hey, You can ban me right? Of course, I can understand that not everybody can handle a discussion and only guys with many "Ferrari horses" can be jerks to other users. Noobs like me with no horses at all, should stay in their caves, cause we know shit (after all we don't read fancy magazines and we don't have experience).

I just can't believe you are 38 (I could understand if you were 18), your arrogance and isultive way of expressing yourself just doesn't match to your profile age. Simply pathetic.

And once again - you didn't understand a word from the "idiot" lecture, did you?
It's not about language stuff, it's about using words without knowing their meaning. You gotta be either stupid, offensive or ingnorant. No?
Boor - that's the only word to describe the attitude.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t_results.html <-- is this some kinda of a dodgy joke I don't get? ROFL 1100bhp and this Vette has 4.3 from 0-60mph ahhahaha so pathetic. That's like what, italian cars could do in the late 80s? hahahahahah These cars are so pathetic jsut like th tuners. BTW what's that http://images.motortrend.com/roadtes...+rear_view.jpg reliability? xD

You just made my day. Thanks

RC45 · 12-19-2006, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by dash

RC45: first thanks for pointing out my mistake (wright <--- that one - always apreciated and I mean it) but isn't this shame when you criple your native language?

Now back on track. You can ban me? Oh noes!!! Momy. I guess taht should stop me from writting here what I just want to do. Unfortunately, I'm not that easy.

I have never seen more complex-ridden, self repeating (you are troll [I thought only 11 year old kids use that silly expression], you are ignorant and so on - is this all you can aford?).
You are so in love with american cars that you can't see the ovious thing - they were always a piece of crap to drive (I don't say a Mustang Boss or a Corvette are legendary cars - legendary yes, great to drive - hell no). Why the rest of the world knows about it and only Americans claim that these are good cars? Is cheaply made, poor handling and not reliable car the essence of your expectations?
Wanna compete with your beloved Vette against McLaren F1 (yes the one none of you seen and also the one you think has crappy breaks and turns even worse than american cars).
You all guys just don't let me give up the american argument. All the things you say and the way you say it only proves that there is no more ignorant nation that you are (kinda unfair for the rest Americans, but guys like you are responsible for that).
RC45: please, have mercy - don't quote me here crappy magazine (I had the chance to see few american tv shows about cars - it was a punishment). What do you expect? That they say "oh, again it's a car that's cheap and sloppy but hey, it's american". Please.
I just can't believe you are 38 (I could understand if you were 18), your

And once again - you didn't understand a word from the "idiot" lecture, did you?
It's not about language stuff, it's about using words without knowing their meaning. You gotta be either stupid, offensive or ingnorant. No?

By the way, the thing with Corvette history is priceless, Do you mind if I quote that to my friends?

But hey, You can ban me right? Of course, I can understand that not everybody can handle a discussion and only guys with many "Ferrari horses" can be jerks to other users. Noobs like me with no horses at all, should stay in their caves, cause we know shit (after all we don't read fancy magazines and we don't have experience).

I just can't believe you are 38 (I could understand if you were 18), your arrogance and isultive way of expressing yourself just doesn't match to your profile age. Simply pathetic.

And once again - you didn't understand a word from the "idiot" lecture, did you?
It's not about language stuff, it's about using words without knowing their meaning. You gotta be either stupid, offensive or ingnorant. No?
Boor - that's the only word to describe the attitude.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t_results.html <-- is this some kinda of a dodgy joke I don't get? ROFL 1100bhp and this Vette has 4.3 from 0-60mph ahhahaha so pathetic. That's like what, italian cars could do in the late 80s? hahahahahah These cars are so pathetic jsut like th tuners. BTW what's that http://images.motortrend.com/roadtes...+rear_view.jpg reliability? xD

You just made my day. Thanks

Everything you have mentioned is bullshit.

Period.

You have not disputed a single thing I have presented.

All you have offered is unsubstantiated opinion.

The performance numbers I have discussed are factual and backed up by unternaitonal measurement and testing.

If you are going to sit there and dispute actual international roadtest results from British, German, French etc magazines and TV shows then you are not worth bothering with.

You still have not offered a single fact back - do you even drive, and if so what kind of car?

What car experience are you using as a basis for your opinion?

And then how many sports and performance cars have you driven on the street and how many on the track?

And how many have you actually tested?

Also - where do you publish your experieces and resutls?

This is where I publish mine...

http://www.jabbasworld.net/dload.php...e&file_id=1640

SO again - what PRACTICAL experience are you basing your opinion on?

I ma basing mine on actual car experience and I hazard to guess I know a damn side more and have a damn side more experience than you have.

So - I know more than you (facyually porven) - I have more experience than you (demonstrated) --- please lets see your credentials, troll?

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43387

dash · 12-19-2006, 10:47 AM

Kid, I don't say you don't have an experience. All I say now is that you are an arrogant, blinded and narrow minded kid.

That link you provided earlier with those tuned american cars - these numbers are enormously pathetic compared to all the cars I've mentioned. 4.2s from 0-60? hahahah is this a joke? This gotta be joke or else a plain M3 (E46) with "only" 346bhp is an ultimate super sports car. lol
Gimme a break.
You asking me about experience. What should I tell you? Even if I respond to that, will you believe me?
I do believe there are people way more competent than me to judge those cars.
You'd be probably very suprised if I'd tell you that I'd love to have Corvette C5 (yeah, the big, sloppy one because it's one of the prettiest cars ever made). Yet I know it wouldn't have a chance with any BMW or Audi or even a Ford (the german ones) on a twisted road.
Still I say it's pathetic to put a huge turbo to your stock car an pretend you have something better than Bugatti Veyron (also known as piece of art

).

By the way, do you have nightmares with trolls?

EDIT:
One more thing. I do not worship Top Gear (for them only british cars are the best, so...), I think one of the best (if not THE best) shows is german Motorvision (always based on facts not personal preferences). Top Gear is a portion of fun with fancy cars.

RC45 · 12-19-2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by dash

Kid, I don't say you don't have an experience. All I say now is that you are an arrogant, blinded and narrow minded kid.

I am right and you are wrong AND you are an idiot.

This has been proven in in front of everybody - you spout incorrect opinion and is proven to be so.

Originally Posted by dash

That link you provided earlier with those tuned american cars - these numbers are enormously pathetic compared to all the cars I've mentioned. 4.2s from 0-60? hahahah is this a joke? This gotta be joke or else a plain M3 (E46) with "only" 346bhp is an ultimate super sports car. lol
Gimme a break.

Have ever seen a real M3 let alone driven one?

Originally Posted by dash

You asking me about experience. What should I tell you? Even if I respond to that, will you believe me?

I do believe there are people way more competent than me to judge those cars.

What should you say? How about put up or shut up.

If there are "people more competent" than you, what are basing you incorrect ramblings on then?

Originally Posted by dash

You'd be probably very suprised if I'd tell you that I'd love to have Corvette C5 (yeah, the big, sloppy one because it's one of the prettiest cars ever made). Yet I know it wouldn't have a chance with any BMW or Audi or even a Ford (the german ones) on a twisted road.

How stupid are you?

Name the BMW or Audi or European Ford that can perform at the same level as the C5 Z06... name just 1... just so we base this discussion on FACT not your stupidity.

Originally Posted by dash

Still I say it's pathetic to put a huge turbo to your stock car an pretend you have something better than Bugatti Veyron (also known as piece of art

).

How the hell do you think the Veyron makes its power then?

Originally Posted by dash

By the way, do you have nightmares with trolls?

No - I just wait for a single one to ever post a single fact...

Originally Posted by dash

EDIT:
One more thing. I do not worship Top Gear (for them only british cars are the best, so...), I think one of the best (if not THE best) shows is german Motorvision (always based on facts not personal preferences). Top Gear is a portion of fun with fancy cars.

Really?

So whats the fastest street car you ever drove on a real race track?

I'm the one driving the Ruf RT12 that is chasing the Ruf CTR Yellowbird into Turn 1...

Again - what is the basis for every one of your incorrect "facts"? We know it's not experience of any kind...

dash · 12-19-2006, 11:55 AM

RC45: you're by far the most pathetic, dumb (cause only dumb people can't understand what they are reading) and very very retarded. How many times do I have to write the same thing that you could finaly understand it?
There is no one on this forum, and I mean no one so enormously dumb as you.
First I thought you are kinda big mouth kid - I was wrong.
Retard is the word that describes you the best.
Your facts are pure laugh.
Go back to school kid, learn again how to read with understanding.
You called me a tool, mate if I'm a tool than you surely gotta be the toolbox full of tools.
Shame there is no "biggest clown on the forum contest", you'd be unbeaten - no one is even close to you.

By the way: where did I say C5 Z06? lol blind or stupid?

RC45 · 12-19-2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by dash

RC45: you're by far the most pathetic, dumb (cause only dumb people can't understand what they are reading) and very very retarded. How many times do I have to write the same thing that you could finaly understand it?
There is no one on this forum, and I mean no one so enormously dumb as you.
First I thought you are kinda big mouth kid - I was wrong.
Retard is the word that describes you the best.
Your facts are as pure laugh.

Disprove a single fact then..

Originally Posted by dash

Go back to school kid, learn again how to read with understanding.
You called me a tool, mate if I'm a tool than you surely gotta be the toolbox full of tools.

Based on what exactly? The fact that everything you typed in not only factually incorrect but poor basis for gossip let alone a debate?

Originally Posted by dash

Shame there is no "biggest clown on the forum contest", you'd be unbeaten - no one is even close to you.

Is that all you have? Instead of offering any value to the forums at all, you simply simply choose to spew nonsense.

Originally Posted by dash

By the way: where did I say C5 Z06? lol blind or stupid?

Well - again, considering there are a number of suspension and model offerings in the 1997 - 2004 C5 Corvette line up, a Coupe, Convertable and Fixed Roof Coupe - each with differing levels of performance, and that the most basic "hairdresser" variant is better than any BMW or Audi you care to name, I am wondering what you are basing you comments on.

Compare year for year the base C5 Coupe 1997,98,99,2000,01,02,03 and 04 to the equivalent year base sporty Audi or BMW or Porsche for that matter and you will see you are agin wrong.

I would hope you are a performance enthusiast not a poser, so the assumption is you would choose the GT3 if you wanted a Porsche, a F360CS is you wanted a year matched Ferrari or the Z06 if you chose a Corvette.

Basically it is going to be like this - either come back and discuss factually or say good bye.

OK?

dash · 12-19-2006, 12:32 PM

It wasn't me who started this mess. All I wanted here was a discussion. If you'll read again my posts, you will see that.

RC45 · 12-19-2006, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by dash

It wasn't me who started this mess. All I wanted here was a discussion. If you'll read again my posts, you will see that.

Discussions are based on sharing factual information, you have offered no facts.

Zero.

Just flawed opinion that has been disproven.

JW is about factual discussions not lies and falsehoods.

Your choice if you want to stay around.

Cockrocket · 12-19-2006, 01:51 PM

Good to see a Veyron being given a bit of a thrash. Due to the price either weird actors like Tom Cruise or old, rich off-shore bankers wil be buying these, then locking them away in a gold plated shed! :roll:

RC45 · 12-19-2006, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Cockrocket

Good to see a Veyron being given a bit of a thrash. Due to the price either weird actors like Tom Cruise or old, rich off-shore bankers wil be buying these, then locking them away in a gold plated shed! :roll:

That's the saddest bit of all...

Minacious · 12-19-2006, 02:35 PM

You know, I was going to leave this discussion alone since RC was handling it rather well, but since Americans (Dash, you do know RC isn’t a native of America, right?) as a whole have been brought in I had no choice but to speak my mind.

Dash, wow, what more can be said about your presence at JW up to this point. It has been interesting to say the least. If you are truly 69 years of age, you certainly don’t act like it. I won’t even touch on your grammar and spelling, but doing it correctly does make for an easier read.

You can’t honestly believe that all American sports cars are as bad as you say they are, can you? I’m American and not at all a fan of much of what comes out of this country, but there are exceptions when it comes to certain sports cars (namely the Corvette) that are built to do what they do and they are doing that very well and for a fraction of the cost when compared to rivals across the pond (Yes, cost plays a huge part in it). It’s almost as though you are offended that an American car can do as well and in many cases better. Why? I don’t care for Porsche (except for the CGT), but there is no denying what those cars can do, especially the GT offerings. Then when the truth about these American sports cars starts to rear its head the conversation turns into the old debate that American sports cars do well in a straight line but not in any places with turns. This is often accompanied with the statement that there are no turns in America. Two of the most ignorant statements that can possible be made and nothing more than cop-out when the debate isn’t in your favor. America has some of the most technically curvy roads on the damn planet. Do a little bit of research before opening your mouth and this will become apparent. As far as how well these American sports cars can do in the turns, I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves, and these numbers are being achieved on foreign soil too.

As far as real world experiences go, RC gets to smell the exhaust fumes, run the same track, and drive next to or in many of these cars that are being mentioned. I hate him for it and am very envious.

Many who decide to debate with him have only magazines and internet forums to get their information. Who the hell would you believe the guy who is driving the car or the guy who saw it parked at the grocery store? The saying “truth hurts” has never shined more true than in many of the America versus the world debates here on JW.