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Old 08-21-2003, 05:29 PM   #31
1zippo1
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That's some very interesting news.

Plz try and make some scans from the article, I'm more then willing to host them for you on my webspace!!!
I can understand a bit German so.

I don't think the Gallardo stands a chance however... I don't quite understand why they took that as the third car. A Koenigsegg or a Pagani would have been a better choice. I would love to see a comparison between the Pagani and those other two.

To be honest I think the Enzo is gonna wip the CGT's ass big time (if we're talking about speed). But lets just wait and see.
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Old 08-22-2003, 07:47 AM   #32
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well, you guys`ll be the first to know...

some new boxter pics:
don`t lile the look, but i don`t like the Boxter at all...



the interiour of all new Porsche modells`ll be a bit Cayenne like....



btw zippo ( ...everybody !!? ) what times do you estimate...????
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Old 08-22-2003, 08:22 AM   #33
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Actually this new coupé version is not bad IMO
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Old 08-22-2003, 08:25 AM   #34
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What times... mmmm that's a hard one, very hard. Here's my guess:

Enzo: 7min 10sec (if they have a really really good driver)
Porsche CGT: 7min 20sec
Gallardo: 7 min 45sec

maybe a bit over positive... hard to tell... can't wait for the real results
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Old 08-22-2003, 08:35 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 1zippo1
What times... mmmm that's a hard one, very hard. Here's my guess:

Enzo: 7min 10sec (if they have a really really good driver)
Porsche CGT: 7min 20sec
Gallardo: 7 min 45sec

maybe a bit over positive... hard to tell... can't wait for the real results
Very hard to guess.. I think they'll be a little slower, but not sure... The 996 GT3 is around 7:55 or something like that... can the baby Lambo be 10 seconds faster... possible

As for an almost 7 min time for the Enzo, it would be amazing, but maybe it will be a little slower... but I'm not an expert and BTW, is there somewhere a site with all the times for the Ring, up to date if possible? I never found it...
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Old 08-22-2003, 10:43 AM   #36
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now i`m a bit of an expert and mainly everything concearning Porsche, so i really don`t have an idea about the Enzo`s lap time, but from the technical view it might be equally fast than the GCT, but it would surprise me as hell if the Enzo`d be faster than the CGT.
i think it´s nearly impossible.

BUT guys.....
i think we`re expecting a bit too much of that test of AMS....
we don`t know anything about it.
my estimated lap time for the CGT is only possible with the right driver, such as Walter Röhrl or a equally good driver that can handle the CGT, Enzo.... ( is that possible...???? )
i think even for a decent and very skilled ring driver such as horst v. saurma it`d be impossible to drive such times without practicing a lot...
next chapter: the tyres...just look at the CSL vs. GT3....

btw a 7:10 for the Enzo ?????
just to compare: Clay Regazzoni clocked a 7:06 with a F1 Ferrari
and Olaf Manthey a 7:17 with a GTR3-MR in the 2002 VLN.

TT i think this is the site you`re searching for:
http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp
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Old 08-22-2003, 11:46 AM   #37
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Oops, sorry. As I said, I'm not an expert on the ring... I only had a few times to base my time on. And the best was a X5 Le Mans with 800hp (7:30), but that thing was pretty high above the ground and weight a lot so I thought the Enzo should do a lot better.

I still think that the Enzo will do better then the CGT, but you know a lot more then cars then I do, so I'll probably be wrong

Oh and why, well the power to weight ratio of the enzo is better, or am I mistaken again?
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:26 PM   #38
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Thanks st-anger, but I already know that site it's simply not enough LOL
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Old 08-23-2003, 05:53 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by 1zippo1
I still think that the Enzo will do better then the CGT, but you know a lot more then cars then I do, so I'll probably be wrong

Oh and why, well the power to weight ratio of the enzo is better, or am I mistaken again?
well thx for the compliment, but although i`ve studied that kind of stuff and always been working in the automobil industry my guesses can be completely wrong, but technically, the CGT should be faster, that`s for sure...

well, so lets take a closer look Enzo vs. CGT…
for me as a technician i immediately thought of the battle Porsche 959 vs. Ferrari F40 back in the 90`s. they were both brilliant cars but each in a very different way. the raw racecar sportiness and fury of the F40 vs the technologically ahead of its time and effective 959.
and history repeats itself: the Enzo again is the raw racecar with no compromises and the CGT is the state of the art car in terms of new technologies. Porsche registered over 70 patents on the CGT. Just think of PCCC, PCCB and the the first production car to feature a monocoque chassis and engine/transmission mounts made of carbon-fibre-reinforced plastic.
As said before both are incredible cars, but on the one hand the Enzo is a bit too much screaming “ohhh just look at me”, on the other hand the CGT doesn`t have to, I think it`s simply the better looking car, from inside and outside. I`ve only seen the CGT from inside but it just looks beautiful and it`s more streetable, again inside and to drive. Is it just up to me or are many Enzo customers more on the 'garage-queen'/'occasional track toy' side, because of its exclusivity. to be precise, more a collectors item. On the other hand the CGT has been designed to be driven for real due to it`s vast development on the Nordschleife. even engineers from BMW who were also testing on the nordschleife during “indurtry pool” sessions reckon that the CGT will be the first production car to break the 7:30 mark, not a single word about the Enzo. sure this has also been one of Ferrari´s goals but the main test track of the Enzo`d been Fiorano so this is really no comparison to the nordschleife, and the CGT has been tested there and at Weissach test track. so i think the Enzo might do better on “normal” tracks (flat, smooth, etc), but the CGT is going to be the best choice for the nordschleife, for sure. hopefully there`ll be no surprises....
i think i`ve posted that before but just to sum it up, there had been a secret comparison carried out by Porsche at the Papenburg proving grounds. the result: the two cars are very equal in performance, also in handling terms in the dry, but the CGT has a better wet grip and handling. so, the downforce of the CGT is more appreciated than a few extra mph or some seconds faster acceleration times, just look at the coefficient of drag: CGT: 0.39, Enzo: 0.37
996 TT: 0.31.
some other figures are interesting, the Enzo did 1.36gs of transverse acceleration on a 400m radius at Fiorano, Ferrari engineers claim it can easily do 1.4gs. to compare a standard GT2 can do 1.35gs ...no problem, a M3 CSL ( with michelin pilot sport tyres ) 1.4gs
concearning the weight there are many confusions every manufactorer claims their car is the lightest, has the better power to weight ratio or whatever.
The problem with that weight figures is the difference between EG and DIN measurement:
The DIN weight ist the curb or unladen weight, the EG weight includes a standard 65kg driver and 7kg luggage. So I´ve seen serveral different figures, by the end of 2001 the CGT had been ever 150kg lighter than the production car nowadays to make it more driveable after walter röhrl`s first test drives, but I´ll comment on that later…
So here are the ( hopefully exactely ) figures:

CGT DIN: 1380kg
EG: 1452kg
Enzo DIN: 1365kg
EG: 1437kg

So power to weight ration is about 2.25 kg/hp to 2.1kg/hp.
0-60 wins the Enzo, +48hp, launch control, F1 style shifting paddles, 0-124…we can only guess, but the CGT has a 1/4 mile time of 10.9 sec which is faster than the Ferrari Enzo's 11.1 sec. 0-60-0 or 0-186-0 would be interesting. top speeds…who is interessted in that…???
it`s a useless topic, but there`ll be test drives at Nardo or places like that, just for showing off and marketing...
so back to the things walter röhrl said about the CGT. one day the engineering team was about to cancel the a day´s testing at the nordschkeife because of bad weather but röhrl insisted the car had to be tested in slippery conditions too, and when he arrived back from that lap he was white. So that’s why the car is now 150kg heavier, due to several safety instalations such as TC and ESP…although originally Porsche had no plans to fit any electronically stabillity systems only röhrls insistence forced Porsche to develop these things for the CGT.
without all that stuff röhrl said before: "the first car in my life that i drive and i feel scared".
now the next statement is an interesting one as well: “at the nürburgring, i´ve tested the car with several tyre combinations and found that the 20-inch Michelin tyres, while excellent in the dry, were more of a handful in the wet than the equivalent Pirellis, on which I´ve been 20 ( !!!! ) seconds a lap quicker around the 22km circuit”
When he was asked to estimate a lap time he said: “ we develop the car to be the best we can possibly build and then put a stop watch on it. we don't come up with a time and say 'this is what we must achieve' because then you have a limit."
The best time so far during the test sessions`ve been a 7:36 but without any pressure of clocking a good lap, röhrl said.
now here`s something maybe only a hand full ppl know just to show on what level the test sessions are. i´ve the info from my very reliable source, because there were so many rumours about that accident.....very funny to read that some ppl are completely wrong and are thinking they know a lot....
During a testing session röhrl pushed a bit too hard, hit a curb you shouldn`t hit at “Kallenhard” and all of a sudden the airbags opened up. The airbag hit back the helmet of röhrl and he shortly lost control of the car, which touched a wall and was slightly damaged on the left side. the rumours said the car was completely wrecked, röhrl seriously injured ( ...because of the helicopter transport...)and it d been his fault. to be sure everything is fine with röhrl he was brought to hospital to Bonn by helicopter, but they found nothing and he left the hospital immediately, to look what`s happened to the car.
And the best is yet to come…when someone asked mr. kussmaul which car is faster, the Enzo or CGT, he replied “ the Enzo is a true racecar for the track, and the CGT with the setup it is sold to the customers, a streetable sportscar you can drive everyday. But we have another setup for the track too, so don`t worry ”
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Old 08-23-2003, 05:59 PM   #40
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Very nice little "walkthrough"

Just curious, not sure, but I guess Porsche did more hours at the Ring that Ferrari did maybe it can help too
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Old 08-23-2003, 06:04 PM   #41
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what i know, the Enzo never laped the nordschleife during developement process...
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Old 08-23-2003, 06:18 PM   #42
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Really? Never? Dang, every car lap the Nurburgring lately, during developpement, even Maybach and such
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Old 08-26-2003, 03:30 PM   #43
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i think the enzo takes it, but this will depend on how good the driver(s) are; wish i knew deutch.......my wife is german but i'm too lazy to have her teach me i'll just get her to translate it for me.......
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Old 09-01-2003, 03:01 PM   #44
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well, i arrived back from holidays today and it seems like i really missed everything...
a former colleague during my time at Porsche Weissach mailed me on the 26th of october that he just attended the "CGT experience" for the customers the day before. sadly he won`t be a owner some time, but he managed to attend, we call this our "Weissach bonus"...
as i posted before there were two CGT´s a black and a silver one, with proffesional drivers to show the customers the true potential of the car. the customers weren`t allowed to test drive a CGT but a C2, C4S, TT,TT X50, GT2, Cayenne TT & S. many of the ppl attending were also Cayenne drivers and the instructors showed them also the real potential of the Porsche SUV around the track, and yes, you can drift with a 955TT properly.... the 955S was mainly for off road use...
my friend arrived at midday where the customers had lunch at that time. Porsche has quite a program for CGT customers, not only the standard Leipzig factory tour...
by the time they reached the airport ( ...when they were comming by plane...many customers were from usa or something like that ) a Cayenne picked them up and they were brought to a well known hotel in leipzig.
an exclusive dinner in a top restaurant with all inculsive. you can order what you want and as much you want. the following day`s programme: the standard video presentation of the facility and a special CGT vid, lunch at the restaurant, followed by a tour trough the museum. to sum it up a tour of the 7 production lines where the first production car`ll be finished in october. after that, 2-3 hours track experience with the cars i mentioned above. to sum it up, really all of the ppl who had the chance to get a ride in the CGT were speachless due to its performance and the driver`s courage to push it so far, must have been real fun, maybe i´m able to attend a "CGT exp. event" in late october, i´ve told the right ppl that i would like to...
then i`ll be able to provide you some pics too...
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Old 09-01-2003, 03:21 PM   #45
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St-Anger, I never cease to be amazed about your knowledge and connections at Porsche, it's very good to have someone like you on board and i'm glad you have decided to keep us up to date with accurate information about Porsche..
Now, I've read that you specialized in AWD transmissions, but I imagine your engineering knowledge is in all areas too...
Do you work on the automobile industrie now, or what do you do?
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